| 00:17:45 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: my new mouse will be more 133+ |
| 00:17:52 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 00:18:09 | captain_proton | BZFlag gave me the go ahead to hack the HUD |
| 00:18:49 | vogon_jeltz | you done yet? :) |
| 00:18:54 | captain_proton | haven't even started |
| 00:19:02 | captain_proton | bzflag -view captain_proton |
| 00:30:03 | BZFlag | heh, you don't need to use that name if you don't want to. ;-) |
| 00:32:07 | captain_proton | i think i'll go with my recent streak and do -view nuts |
| 00:33:25 | captain_proton | reads up on what glScissor does |
| 00:34:50 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: got mozilla 0.9.5 yet? |
| 00:38:00 | captain_proton | hmmm the UI code isn't centered in the HUD |
| 00:44:51 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... |
| 00:45:18 | vogon_jeltz | http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/ |
| 00:45:21 | vogon_jeltz | read it :) |
| 00:45:37 | vogon_jeltz | this guy built a jet engine to cool beer |
| 00:47:42 | firegod | ya, saw that. |
| 00:47:52 | vogon_jeltz | doesn't it sound fun? :) |
| 00:48:00 | firegod | the cart did |
| 00:48:17 | firegod | idiot without breaks tho |
| 00:49:43 | vogon_jeltz | hrm... should be a half-hour before I have mozilla 0.9.5 :/ |
| 00:56:05 | captain_proton | argh gerbil made another linux-crashing bzflag world |
| 00:56:25 | vogon_jeltz | hahaha |
| 00:56:51 | vogon_jeltz | needs to write up a kluge to make sure that this doesn't happen in the futur |
| 00:56:55 | vogon_jeltz | future, even |
| 00:57:26 | captain_proton | please do now :) |
| 00:57:42 | vogon_jeltz | hehe |
| 00:58:25 | captain_proton | i will redo the HUD, you fix the core dump |
| 00:58:44 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... are we targeting the XML stuff for 1.8 or 2.0? |
| 00:58:52 | vogon_jeltz | because that'll render it pointless |
| 00:59:15 | vogon_jeltz | (to write up a fix is to break the protocol, etc. etc.) |
| 00:59:57 | vogon_jeltz | (rewrite: if it's 1.8, this fix is pointless) |
| 01:00:35 | captain_proton | writing up a fix will break the protocol? the problem is with > 16 teleporters |
| 01:00:58 | vogon_jeltz | oh, OK |
| 01:01:16 | vogon_jeltz | didn't know that you guys had tracked it down to that |
| 01:01:53 | captain_proton | I have several times just gdb'ing core files |
| 01:05:12 | captain_proton | excellent: font size changes in the player list work |
| 01:05:54 | vogon_jeltz | hmmmmmm |
| 01:06:56 | captain_proton | any suggestions for the hud? |
| 01:07:07 | vogon_jeltz | a round compass :) |
| 01:07:31 | vogon_jeltz | I'll write up a missile lock indicator, too, if I can fix the segfault :/ |
| 01:08:22 | captain_proton | i wish all the playtime UI stuff was in the HUD |
| 01:09:00 | captain_proton | but a lot of it seems to be in the window stuff ?!?!?!? |
| 01:10:20 | vogon_jeltz | hrm... the patch applied all right, but I need to check if it still segfaults |
| 01:10:36 | captain_proton | what patch?? |
| 01:11:01 | vogon_jeltz | my missile lock warning patch |
| 01:11:07 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 01:11:22 | captain_proton | so you're not trying to fix the world segfault problem? |
| 01:11:40 | vogon_jeltz | I'm almost done with the missile lock warning... give me a couple minutes |
| 01:13:53 | captain_proton | ok |
| 01:14:30 | vogon_jeltz | builds his patched client |
| 01:15:35 | captain_proton | taking awfully long there |
| 01:15:46 | vogon_jeltz | hmmmmmmmmmm... |
| 01:15:50 | vogon_jeltz | something broke |
| 01:15:53 | captain_proton | heh |
| 01:17:21 | iLL_BZFlag | hey proton |
| 01:17:28 | captain_proton | hi iLL_BZFlag |
| 01:17:29 | iLL_BZFlag | is there a good map howto? |
| 01:17:33 | captain_proton | not really |
| 01:17:54 | iLLf8d | I tired goofing with it a long time ago couldnt get some java client thing to work someone was working on |
| 01:17:56 | iLLf8d | dunno |
| 01:18:02 | iLLf8d | whatefver it was it I couldn't get it running |
| 01:18:12 | iLLf8d | may not have been officially sanctioned |
| 01:18:19 | iLLf8d | uhm |
| 01:18:21 | captain_proton | are you on linux? |
| 01:18:23 | iLLf8d | yeah |
| 01:18:28 | captain_proton | do you have gnome? |
| 01:18:29 | iLLf8d | linux and freebsd |
| 01:18:37 | iLLf8d | no not at the moment but I can run gnome stuff |
| 01:18:46 | captain_proton | ok |
| 01:18:52 | iLLf8d | I run alot of gtk packages |
| 01:19:00 | iLLf8d | is there a gnome app to do something? |
| 01:19:04 | captain_proton | http://jupiter.babylonia.flatirons.org/code/bzedit.php |
| 01:20:07 | captain_proton | loves tabbed windows and gestures in mozilla |
| 01:20:15 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 01:20:23 | iLLf8d | I couldn't get it to compile properly |
| 01:20:28 | captain_proton | no?? |
| 01:20:39 | iLLf8d | there was no binary and the instrcutions in the installer said it'll create a packages path |
| 01:20:42 | iLLf8d | I didn't have one so... |
| 01:20:49 | captain_proton | for bzedit?!?! |
| 01:20:55 | iLLf8d | no for mozilla |
| 01:20:55 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 01:20:57 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 01:21:03 | captain_proton | ohhhh |
| 01:21:07 | captain_proton | scared me there |
| 01:21:18 | vogon_jeltz | hrm |
| 01:21:33 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: once you have 0.9.5, install optimoz |
| 01:21:48 | vogon_jeltz | wtf is optimoz? |
| 01:22:09 | captain_proton | gestures |
| 01:22:33 | iLLf8d | lol |
| 01:22:43 | iLLf8d | i'll give a gesture |
| 01:22:46 | iLLf8d | =P jk |
| 01:23:05 | iLLf8d | the instructions prompt me for a password on the cvs |
| 01:23:06 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 01:23:07 | captain_proton | its really kinda cool - especially in conjunction with the tabs |
| 01:23:33 | vogon_jeltz | does this require downloading of a source tarball? :/ |
| 01:23:43 | captain_proton | no |
| 01:23:46 | captain_proton | you install the rpms |
| 01:23:52 | vogon_jeltz | good |
| 01:23:54 | captain_proton | then go to optimoz on mozdev.org |
| 01:23:58 | captain_proton | press the install link |
| 01:24:01 | captain_proton | and it installs |
| 01:24:03 | captain_proton | restart mozilla |
| 01:24:06 | captain_proton | bang! you've got gestures |
| 01:25:08 | captain_proton | hmmm tabs have a history bug |
| 01:25:36 | iLLf8d | captain_proton: you know the scoop with cvs passwords on that site is that devels only? |
| 01:25:50 | captain_proton | for bzedit? |
| 01:26:07 | captain_proton | oh wait - just check out the bzedit CVS module from the bzflag sf :) |
| 01:26:18 | captain_proton | forgot I moved it :P |
| 01:26:31 | iLLf8d | ah |
| 01:26:31 | iLLf8d | ok |
| 01:27:53 | iLLf8d | is it its seperate package or part of the bzflag tree? |
| 01:28:08 | captain_proton | separate package |
| 01:28:10 | captain_proton | cvs co bzedit |
| 01:28:21 | captain_proton | but its in the bzflag project: |
| 01:28:38 | captain_proton | cvs -d ":pserver:anonymous@cvs.bzflag.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/bzflag" co bzedit |
| 01:28:52 | vogon_jeltz | heh... the name of the debugger xpi file for mozilla is venkman.xpi :) |
| 01:29:01 | captain_proton | yup |
| 01:29:07 | captain_proton | the debugger is called venkman |
| 01:29:46 | vogon_jeltz | I need to test my patches to BZFlag |
| 01:29:48 | vogon_jeltz | meet on your server? |
| 01:30:08 | captain_proton | i can't connect to my server - gerb's new world segfaults linux clients |
| 01:30:12 | vogon_jeltz | ahh, OK |
| 01:31:12 | iLLf8d | cvs co -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.bzflag.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/bzedit, I tried 3 ways with bzedit after co and no bzedit at the end of path with it at end of path etc... |
| 01:31:29 | captain_proton | no: |
| 01:31:32 | captain_proton | cvs -d ":pserver:anonymous@cvs.bzflag.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/bzflag" co bzedit |
| 01:31:47 | captain_proton | its /cvsroot/bzflag, not /cvsroot/bzedit |
| 01:31:59 | vogon_jeltz | hrm |
| 01:32:38 | iLLf8d | oh heh |
| 01:32:55 | captain_proton | ya know what vogon_jeltz? you should fix the segfault |
| 01:34:18 | firegod | what's bzedit do? |
| 01:34:41 | captain_proton | its a world builder that I wrote because the java one is 2d and wouldn't work for me |
| 01:35:34 | captain_proton | what other random crap has been going on in my life? |
| 01:39:00 | iLLf8d | ./depcomp: ./depcomp: No such file or directory |
| 01:39:03 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 01:41:06 | captain_proton | depcomp?? |
| 01:42:15 | iLLf8d | yeah |
| 01:42:18 | iLLf8d | it bombs out there |
| 01:42:28 | iLLf8d | can i flood for a min? |
| 01:42:40 | iLLf8d | about uhm 10+ lines not much more |
| 01:42:56 | iLLf8d | actually almost 20 heh |
| 01:43:15 | iLLf8d | depmode=none /bin/sh ./depcomp \ |
| 01:43:15 | iLLf8d | c++ -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I. -I/usr/include -DNEED_GNOMESUPPORT_H -I/usr/lib/gnome-libs/include -I/usr/include/gtk-1.2 -I/usr/include/glib-1.2 -I/usr/lib/glib/include -I/usr/X11R6/include -I/usr/include/gtk-1.2 -I/usr/include/glib-1.2 -I/usr/lib/glib/include -I/usr/X11R6/include -g -O2 -c -o bzedit.o `test -f bzedit.cpp || echo './'`bzedit.cpp |
| 01:43:15 | iLLf8d | ./depcomp: ./depcomp: No such file or directory |
| 01:43:15 | iLLf8d | make[2]: *** [bzedit.o] Error 127 |
| 01:43:26 | iLLf8d | actually those are where it heads south |
| 01:43:48 | iLLf8d | I wonder if i'm missing a library |
| 01:43:57 | iLLf8d | the configure ran fine |
| 01:44:12 | captain_proton | bizzare |
| 01:44:45 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 01:44:47 | iLLf8d | ah well |
| 01:45:08 | iLLf8d | maybe the same thing happened last time (although I thought it was a different client I may be mistaken) |
| 01:45:49 | captain_proton | oohyeah nice small font on my score list |
| 01:46:48 | captain_proton | ok thats enough HUD hacking for now |
| 01:55:39 | vogon_jeltz | OK, it segfaults |
| 01:55:48 | vogon_jeltz | now to get my debug-fu on |
| 01:58:01 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... where is the PlayerId class defined, BZFlag? |
| 01:58:40 | vogon_jeltz | n/m... found it |
| 02:00:50 | iLLf8d | hey I got it working heh |
| 02:01:04 | iLLf8d | I commented out that in the makefile cause it just wasn't there to be found |
| 02:01:06 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... I'm dereferencing a null pointer somewhere :/ |
| 02:01:11 | iLLf8d | seems to have compiled and looks like its working |
| 02:01:20 | iLLf8d | I hate it when you do that |
| 02:01:24 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 02:01:25 | vogon_jeltz | hehe |
| 02:03:08 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... how do you output a message to the HUD? |
| 02:03:33 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 02:03:33 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton, I could use your help |
| 02:03:58 | iLLf8d | he's too busy with belana |
| 02:04:22 | vogon_jeltz | hehe |
| 02:04:31 | iLLf8d | is there a way to change |
| 02:04:36 | iLLf8d | world extents in the bzedit? |
| 02:04:47 | iLLf8d | ie field size? |
| 02:06:00 | iLLf8d | hmm doesn't look like the world editor is finished |
| 02:06:15 | iLLf8d | cut and clear doesnt' seem to work either huh |
| 02:06:48 | vogon_jeltz | you can't change world extents with the current version of BZFlag |
| 02:08:22 | iLLf8d | oh hmm |
| 02:08:44 | iLLf8d | hey is there anything that a practically newbie programmer can help with the coding? |
| 02:09:06 | iLLf8d | I've basically forgotten what i've learned but not totally etc... |
| 02:10:06 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 02:10:11 | vogon_jeltz | you could do some debugging |
| 02:10:20 | iLLf8d | I guess I jsut have a supreme lack of confidence mostly heh |
| 02:35:25 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: you here? |
| 03:15:58 | vogon_jeltz | is away: playing tribes2 |
| 04:19:41 | Behomet | Hi |
| 04:19:53 | vogon_jeltz | hi |
| 04:20:09 | Behomet | hey vogon |
| 04:20:51 | Behomet | Hey, how come no one was on ducati today? |
| 04:22:33 | firegod | were those bots earlier? |
| 04:23:23 | Behomet | I didn't see anyone on while I was playing...There was some weirdness all day on man of the servers though |
| 04:23:59 | firegod | that was me kicking your ass (; |
| 04:25:04 | vogon_jeltz | I never played you |
| 04:25:12 | Behomet | hehe, well that's not quite what I meant =) I meant cheaters...people driving through buildings....everyone disconnected yet moving around....Lot of invincible tanks |
| 04:25:13 | firegod | i go by W!z |
| 04:25:20 | vogon_jeltz | ahh... OK :) |
| 04:25:24 | Behomet | yeah I didn't see you today |
| 04:25:35 | firegod | ya, i was getting alot of red players being unshootable |
| 04:25:52 | firegod | lagmonsters as well |
| 04:26:23 | Behomet | wasn't much fun today |
| 04:27:18 | firegod | i played away most of the early day.. fun enough for me (: |
| 04:27:22 | firegod | evil game d-: |
| 04:27:48 | firegod | i'd be playing now if I wasnt making oggs |
| 05:00:29 | vogon_jeltz | is away: watching the news |
| 05:05:48 | iLLf8d | anyone alive who can help me figure out a few really basic bzflag things? |
| 05:05:48 | iLLf8d | I have bzflag and bzflag-server debian packages installed |
| 05:05:48 | iLLf8d | when I do a man bzflag it mentions a -directory option |
| 05:05:48 | iLLf8d | I don't see anything in bzfs --help that looks like it'd have anything to do with the maps |
| 05:05:48 | iLLf8d | I'm trying to find a location to load the maps/keep them etc... |
| 05:05:48 | iLLf8d | and filenames/whatnot |
| 05:05:48 | iLLf8d | seems /usr/share/bzflag is all waves and fonts anyway |
| 05:10:55 | iLLf8d | lo ks |
| 05:12:31 | |ks| | morning |
| 05:13:38 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 05:13:45 | iLLf8d | its 11pm here |
| 05:13:46 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 05:14:35 | iLLf8d | dude you have any idea the name/extension a map file has to have, and the path it should be placed in? (seems bzfs doesn't mention either when I do --help unless i'm missing it) |
| 05:14:58 | |ks| | I haven't played with maps, sorry |
| 05:25:31 | iLLf8d | hmm seems theres an example script |
| 05:25:39 | iLLf8d | with a .bzw.gz extension |
| 05:26:04 | iLLf8d | I did a locate *.bzw and there doesn't seem to be one on my system so it must have a canned default w/out map outta the box |
| 05:26:51 | iLLf8d | -world filename DUH |
| 05:27:02 | iLLf8d | of course i've been doing keyword searches for maps |
| 05:27:02 | iLLf8d | ehh |
| 05:32:17 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: it wants a full name. there is an example map in CVS but I don't think I put it in the debian package. |
| 05:32:50 | BZFlag | I should drop that in share/docs/bzflag-server or somthing. |
| 05:33:04 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 05:33:10 | iLLf8d | one other hting if you got the time |
| 05:33:18 | iLLf8d | lucifer:/home/neener# /usr/games/bzfs -i eth0 -public "moe's server" -publicaddr lucifer.idlediscourse.com:192.168.0.3 -world ./moe.map |
| 05:33:18 | iLLf8d | Looking up host name: Unknown host |
| 05:33:18 | iLLf8d | openMulticast: Can't get address of eth0 |
| 05:33:18 | iLLf8d | openMulticast: Can't get address of eth0 |
| 05:33:49 | iLLf8d | getting openMulticast errors reguardless of if I mess up my settings or not heh |
| 05:36:33 | BZFlag | -i wants an address or a hostname, not an interface name. |
| 05:37:01 | BZFlag | and 192.168.0.3 is not a public address anyway |
| 05:37:40 | iLLf8d | uhm |
| 05:37:55 | iLLf8d | -i: listen on <interface> |
| 05:37:57 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 05:37:59 | iLLf8d | ok =) |
| 05:38:10 | iLLf8d | will do not questioing just interpreted it wrong |
| 05:38:34 | iLLf8d | yeah I figured my firewall would block it so it wouldn't post on the listserv anyway |
| 05:38:43 | iLLf8d | I may have been wrong sorry if I was |
| 05:38:43 | BZFlag | hmm. perhaps that description needs to change. ;-) |
| 05:39:12 | iLLf8d | thanks for the info on the cvs example thingy |
| 05:39:20 | iLLf8d | will check that out definately |
| 05:39:30 | BZFlag | if it get's to the list server, the list server will try to contact the game server and will only add it if it can. |
| 05:39:42 | iLLf8d | ok cool |
| 05:39:44 | BZFlag | just didn't want you to wonder why it didn't show up. |
| 05:39:47 | iLLf8d | how often is it updated? |
| 05:39:58 | iLLf8d | I have a dynamic update I was wondering on the lag time there |
| 05:40:13 | iLLf8d | ie dynamic ip I was hoping to give my convoluted setup as an addy |
| 05:40:14 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 05:40:37 | iLLf8d | I do static dns -> dyndns.org -> myip, that way I can use my own domain name not some services domain name |
| 05:40:41 | BZFlag | http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/bzflag/bzflag/misc/hix.bzw |
| 05:40:50 | iLLf8d | its something you're not supposed to be able to do heh |
| 05:41:19 | iLLf8d | there is a hix.bzw.gz in the debian bzflag-server package |
| 05:41:23 | iLLf8d | i've already examined that |
| 05:41:28 | BZFlag | the problem is that it uses many ports so it's not easy to forward. |
| 05:41:36 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 05:41:42 | BZFlag | ah, cool. I did add it then. ;-) |
| 05:41:45 | iLLf8d | are the ranges listed anywhere? |
| 05:41:58 | BZFlag | there are no ranges. |
| 05:42:07 | iLLf8d | oh the ports are random? |
| 05:42:11 | BZFlag | yes. |
| 05:42:16 | iLLf8d | oh that blows |
| 05:42:21 | iLLf8d | how mature is the freebsd server? |
| 05:42:32 | BZFlag | agreed. I didn't do it, chris did. ;-) |
| 05:42:33 | iLLf8d | if I use ipfilter stateful hopefully it'll work |
| 05:43:09 | iLLf8d | although my router hmm |
| 05:43:18 | BZFlag | I've been working on a patch that will put everything on the same port. then forwarding will work, but the patch is not yet fully working. |
| 05:43:21 | iLLf8d | I may have to tell it to place one of my boxes in the dmz |
| 05:43:34 | BZFlag | no ipfilter/iptables/etc will not work. |
| 05:43:53 | iLLf8d | hmm why? not that I know anything btw |
| 05:44:00 | iLLf8d | from what i've read it seems that it would |
| 05:44:24 | BZFlag | the server (or a bzrelay) must be on a public machine that is open to incoming tcp connections on any > 1024 port. |
| 05:44:45 | BZFlag | 1 the client connectes to the server |
| 05:45:00 | BZFlag | 2 the server gives the client a new port number to connect to |
| 05:45:07 | BZFlag | 3 the client disconnects |
| 05:45:19 | BZFlag | 4 the client reconnects on this new unique port number. |
| 05:45:35 | iLLf8d | yeah with statefull assuming you tell it to let all out it should wait for return traffic on that new port |
| 05:45:37 | BZFlag | 5 world transfer, and game play commence |
| 05:46:03 | iLLf8d | or does it see the new connection as entirely new |
| 05:46:04 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 05:46:05 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: how will it know the new port? no traffic has happened to that port yet. |
| 05:46:23 | iLLf8d | ah |
| 05:46:38 | BZFlag | it would have to know the (ugly) bzflag protocol and get the port number out of there. better to fix bzfs. |
| 05:46:39 | iLLf8d | make a patch to fix that by sending out on the port it sends it |
| 05:46:40 | iLLf8d | I gotcha |
| 05:46:46 | iLLf8d | that would make it work for stateful |
| 05:47:04 | BZFlag | that's the patch I'm working on. it's not that simple though as... |
| 05:47:08 | iLLf8d | ie just send out a garbage udp whatever to have it put in a wait incoming state so to speak |
| 05:47:24 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 05:47:25 | BZFlag | clients are identified by the server!? address and port number they connect to. |
| 05:47:47 | BZFlag | so if the server only uses one, all clients have the same id and things are really broken. |
| 05:48:42 | BZFlag | so my butt ugly patch does a kind of masquading on the server so that IDs are tracked by client address and port (well, the server view of the client address which could be the masq address) |
| 05:48:45 | iLLf8d | hmm I dunno if I followed that part jsut because of the one client bit you were mentioning |
| 05:49:05 | iLLf8d | I won't bug you with explanations =) thanks for the help so far |
| 05:49:05 | BZFlag | ok, two players foo and bar... k? |
| 05:49:11 | iLLf8d | ok |
| 05:49:19 | BZFlag | server is 192.168.0.3 port 5155 |
| 05:49:23 | iLLf8d | k |
| 05:49:41 | BZFlag | currently foo would be something like 192.168.0.3:2049 |
| 05:49:53 | BZFlag | and bar would be 192.168.0.3:2050 |
| 05:49:56 | iLLf8d | ok |
| 05:50:08 | BZFlag | cause those are the ports on the server they are talking to. |
| 05:50:15 | iLLf8d | ok |
| 05:50:23 | BZFlag | if the server only does one port (5155) |
| 05:50:26 | iLLf8d | my gf is laughing at me sayign ok out loud heh |
| 05:50:58 | BZFlag | then both foo and bar are 192.168.0.3:5155 and every action is coming from and affecting the same "player" |
| 05:51:30 | BZFlag | ie: bar picks up a flag and you see "foo picks up..." |
| 05:51:36 | BZFlag | broken. |
| 05:51:41 | iLLf8d | ok I missed one part (i'm not thick just something is missing) |
| 05:52:10 | iLLf8d | server is listening on 5155 and tells the 2 client to use those other 2 ports for traffic |
| 05:52:22 | BZFlag | actions are handles by player IDs, not by nick. and the ID is just the server address and port. |
| 05:52:27 | iLLf8d | so 5155 is just a port to tell them to redir? |
| 05:52:37 | BZFlag | exactly. |
| 05:52:50 | BZFlag | 5155 is not used at all for tcp game play at present. |
| 05:52:55 | iLLf8d | so whats the problem then |
| 05:52:58 | iLLf8d | I'm saying uhm |
| 05:53:06 | iLLf8d | when it gets a connect on 5155 |
| 05:53:16 | BZFlag | that is a problem for fw and port forwarding. |
| 05:53:33 | BZFlag | it needs to be one port so forwarding works well. |
| 05:53:33 | iLLf8d | have the server say to the client goto this port and send out a udp packet on that port to the remote client box |
| 05:53:45 | BZFlag | but if it is one port then user IDs are broken. |
| 05:54:05 | iLLf8d | dude this won't work in chat heh |
| 05:54:12 | iLLf8d | I can tell i'm missing a part thats obvious heh |
| 05:54:20 | iLLf8d | text chat blows |
| 05:54:23 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: it would need to hit the correct port number on the client box, and has no way to know that one. |
| 05:54:33 | iLLf8d | oh |
| 05:54:36 | iLLf8d | I gotcha |
| 05:54:53 | iLLf8d | so the client box port is totally dynamic for outgoing |
| 05:54:53 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 05:55:05 | iLLf8d | so when it kills its connect |
| 05:55:12 | BZFlag | IDs need to be fixed and then the server can just use one port if it wants to. |
| 05:55:14 | iLLf8d | it may pick up a different port for reconnect |
| 05:55:40 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 05:55:55 | iLLf8d | wonders if stateful has a no port feature for outgoing |
| 05:56:21 | iLLf8d | ie send out a packet to anyport on correct ip |
| 05:56:32 | iLLf8d | although the way the filter handles it it won't work |
| 05:56:34 | iLLf8d | that blows |
| 05:56:51 | iLLf8d | hmm so you need to rewrite both client and server to fix that |
| 05:57:18 | BZFlag | nope, just the server. |
| 05:57:34 | iLLf8d | hmm is it alot of code |
| 05:57:38 | iLLf8d | or just tough stuff |
| 05:57:42 | iLLf8d | I know a networking guru |
| 05:57:45 | captain_proton | wow big crowd tonight |
| 05:57:51 | iLLf8d | don't know if he's the type that would help though |
| 05:57:59 | iLLf8d | he works on gigabit devel stuff |
| 05:58:01 | BZFlag | I'm having the server track player by the players IP and port, and then fixup all packets sent to the player so that they have the players view of the player ID. |
| 05:58:05 | BZFlag | it's butt ugly. |
| 05:58:25 | BZFlag | the alternative is to break all existing clients and servers and start a new protocol. |
| 05:58:25 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 05:58:38 | iLLf8d | sounds like WHAT SHOULD BE DONE =P IMHO heh |
| 05:58:51 | iLLf8d | who am I though a nobody |
| 05:58:52 | BZFlag | force everyone to upgrade? |
| 05:58:55 | iLLf8d | yeah |
| 05:58:57 | iLLf8d | hell yeah |
| 05:59:04 | iLLf8d | the userbase can't be more then 1000 is it? |
| 05:59:13 | BZFlag | hmm.. perhaps that would be easier. |
| 05:59:22 | iLLf8d | dude if somethings broke fix it |
| 05:59:27 | iLLf8d | or you'll be accomodating it forever |
| 05:59:32 | BZFlag | it's just folks like the old mac port and irix ports etc. |
| 05:59:45 | BZFlag | takes a long time to get all platforms out. |
| 05:59:50 | iLLf8d | well fork it then |
| 06:00:12 | BZFlag | then I need to run 2 list servers, and multiple versions of game servers etc. |
| 06:00:17 | iLLf8d | the networking protocol isn't integral to the rest is it? |
| 06:00:33 | iLLf8d | you just have old/newnet |
| 06:00:39 | BZFlag | well, it's not cleanly seperable, but it can be changed, yes. |
| 06:00:46 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 06:00:59 | iLLf8d | I dunno |
| 06:01:02 | BZFlag | ah, a multiprotocol client or server would be even more messy. |
| 06:01:11 | iLLf8d | is the first one to rm -rf and reload to clean out cruft |
| 06:01:20 | iLLf8d | so i'm the wrong one to be talking to about this |
| 06:01:31 | iLLf8d | lost a rm -rf / heh |
| 06:01:49 | iLLf8d | I flush things and start over so fast it'd make your head spin heh |
| 06:02:02 | BZFlag | heh. so if I do it right and fix the protocol in 1.8 (say) then no clients that are out there will work on the new servers. |
| 06:02:49 | BZFlag | on a given day I will change the list server, and all servers will go away except rikers.org, but that will only be playable by people with brand new clients. |
| 06:02:51 | iLLf8d | I dunno I think you guys are too kind heh |
| 06:02:51 | |ks| | wow. look away for half an hour and suddenlt people start talking =) |
| 06:03:14 | iLLf8d | take a more sysadmin attitude and say fuck the users heh |
| 06:03:18 | iLLf8d | =) |
| 06:03:33 | iLLf8d | root=good=bzflagsourcecoders |
| 06:03:37 | |ks| | takes exception to that portrayal |
| 06:03:39 | iLLf8d | s/good/god |
| 06:03:39 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 06:03:51 | BZFlag | think of all the poor folks that will go into withdrawals ;-) |
| 06:03:54 | |ks| | no, I'd rather be root than god ;) |
| 06:04:13 | iLLf8d | |ks| what do you think of what we were talking about above? |
| 06:04:14 | |ks| | hey tim, I noticed all the mac code in CVS... I take it no one's actively working on it? |
| 06:04:37 | |ks| | I'd have to read the scrollback to put it in context... much more fun to take things out of context =) |
| 06:04:44 | iLLf8d | a rewrite of the networking code to accomodate firewalls or a workaround convoluted setup to do the same |
| 06:04:56 | iLLf8d | one involves shafting people with existing clients for new ones |
| 06:05:13 | iLLf8d | ie no backwards compatibility |
| 06:05:19 | |ks| | personally, I think 2.0 should break compatibility where necessary to clean up certain annoying legacy bits |
| 06:05:19 | iLLf8d | force people to get new clients |
| 06:05:29 | iLLf8d | yeah definately |
| 06:05:43 | |ks| | I can understand keeping compatibility within the 1.x version line |
| 06:06:00 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 06:06:14 | iLLf8d | whats left to be added to 1.x before 2.x and what will 2.x add? |
| 06:06:15 | |ks| | grrr... Nick at Night is getting on my nerves with they're "off by7 minutes" schedule |
| 06:06:47 | iLLf8d | I gotta look at this source and see if i can contribute |
| 06:06:57 | iLLf8d | my coding skills stink but I can manage some heh |
| 06:07:47 | |ks| | I'm having pretty good luck getting OS X working, using the other platforms and existing mac code as a guide... working on sound right now (which is not very well documented for OS X :{) |
| 06:08:41 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 06:08:53 | |ks| | once I've got a working client on my powerbook, I might delve deeper into the code... I'd like to think I have a knack for optimizations =) |
| 06:09:22 | iLLf8d | =) |
| 06:10:54 | BZFlag | |ks|: the mac code worked in 1.7d9 but nobody has tried since that I know of. |
| 06:11:13 | vogon_jeltz | is away: None of your business () :-) |
| 06:11:24 | vogon_jeltz | is back (gone 00:00:02) |
| 06:16:20 | iLLf8d | hmm the networking code doesn't seem ugly |
| 06:16:34 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 06:16:54 | vogon_jeltz | the ugliness of networking code comes only when you look at it macroscopically |
| 06:17:21 | iLLf8d | yeah considering most of mine doesn't work heh |
| 06:17:34 | iLLf8d | my nonblocking sockets don't function heh |
| 06:17:40 | vogon_jeltz | hehe |
| 06:17:41 | iLLf8d | is still learnign though |
| 06:17:54 | iLLf8d | my select function is sketchy |
| 06:17:55 | vogon_jeltz | that's why you use something like POSIX threads ot fork off a networking thread |
| 06:17:57 | iLLf8d | thats my problem |
| 06:18:01 | vogon_jeltz | to, even |
| 06:18:02 | |ks| | the 50-way handshake? ;) |
| 06:18:22 | Behomet | vogon_jeltz: what time are you usually online during the day? I want to set up a server tomorrow |
| 06:18:30 | iLLf8d | my problem is I don't understand networking very well |
| 06:19:00 | vogon_jeltz | Behomet: about 3:00 PM-6:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time (GMT-7) |
| 06:19:30 | vogon_jeltz | iLLf8d: get Programming Linux Games and Beginning Linux Programming |
| 06:19:38 | Behomet | cool...a lot of the servers don't seem too "stable" is that a common problem? |
| 06:20:07 | vogon_jeltz | Behomet: hmm... BZFlag servers tend to be stable in terms of program stability, but connections oftentimes drop out |
| 06:20:10 | iLLf8d | I got uhm |
| 06:20:15 | Behomet | O'Reilly's C{++} books are pretty good too |
| 06:20:46 | iLLf8d | stevens unix network programming |
| 06:20:54 | iLLf8d | and his tcp/ip illustrated |
| 06:21:07 | iLLf8d | I'm having issues with the filedescriptors |
| 06:21:14 | Behomet | sams learn * in 28 days is a good tutorial too |
| 06:21:27 | vogon_jeltz | the smart way to do networking is to fork a thread for each connection, use blocking network calls (IIRC, they're thread-safe), and use pipes to pass messages betwixt the threads |
| 06:21:31 | Behomet | *=palce what ever language here |
| 06:21:46 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 06:22:01 | vogon_jeltz | not literally use fork(), but use the pthreads API |
| 06:22:11 | iLLf8d | blocking is tcp though not udp right? |
| 06:22:20 | vogon_jeltz | heh... UDP is connectionless |
| 06:22:23 | iLLf8d | yeah |
| 06:22:26 | vogon_jeltz | so nothing can block |
| 06:22:40 | iLLf8d | so whats the scoop with the udp switch if you propose the previous line? |
| 06:22:44 | vogon_jeltz | except possibly for some calls that wait for a datagram to come by |
| 06:22:56 | Behomet | you can block udp at the application layer |
| 06:23:01 | iLLf8d | or are you pr\oposing a rewrite? |
| 06:23:03 | iLLf8d | heh =P |
| 06:23:03 | vogon_jeltz | iLLf8d: you just integrate the networking code into the main logic loop |
| 06:23:09 | Behomet | but I guess that's not really udp at that point |
| 06:23:28 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 06:23:38 | vogon_jeltz | iLLf8d: BZFlag networking is good at a low level, but it's the high-level stuff that needs a lot of work |
| 06:23:44 | iLLf8d | I'm having issues with pipes too |
| 06:24:04 | iLLf8d | some of these strutures that don't have viewable types irk me |
| 06:24:05 | vogon_jeltz | iLLf8d: Beginning Linux Programming has a great once-over of all the major *NIX APIs |
| 06:24:25 | vogon_jeltz | iLLf8d: the IPC stuff, pipes, POSIX threading... |
| 06:24:28 | iLLf8d | I have that I think |
| 06:24:33 | iLLf8d | red book? |
| 06:24:35 | vogon_jeltz | yep |
| 06:24:50 | vogon_jeltz | by Wrox Press |
| 06:24:57 | iLLf8d | yeah I got it in front of me |
| 06:25:01 | vogon_jeltz | hehe |
| 06:25:12 | vogon_jeltz | get Programming Linux Games, if you don't already have it |
| 06:25:21 | vogon_jeltz | written by an online friend of mine |
| 06:25:22 | iLLf8d | I've been reading and not understanding part of the stevens and beejs guide and a billion other docs |
| 06:25:31 | iLLf8d | I haven't tried that book yet |
| 06:25:35 | iLLf8d | just peruised it |
| 06:25:41 | iLLf8d | will look at it more actively |
| 06:25:56 | vogon_jeltz | it's a great book, and you can rip a good deal of low-level networking code straight from it |
| 06:26:12 | iLLf8d | I got a bot working but its blocking heh |
| 06:26:15 | iLLf8d | irc that is |
| 06:26:20 | iLLf8d | just a goofoff one |
| 06:26:28 | vogon_jeltz | I've already used its sources for networking initialization and sound buffering |
| 06:26:33 | BZFlag | games should run udp imho |
| 06:26:41 | iLLf8d | has issues connecting to opn (dunno why) it can connect to other nets though |
| 06:26:52 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: good idea, but then you end up with problems like phantom flags :) |
| 06:27:00 | BZFlag | there should be a simple reliable layer on top for things like score and kill packets. |
| 06:27:18 | iLLf8d | hey can I make one request for playbility reasons |
| 06:27:28 | iLLf8d | can you SO change the colors in the radar |
| 06:27:36 | BZFlag | and a reset packet that forces a sync. any client can request a resync and then all client get the new view. |
| 06:27:39 | iLLf8d | they come out all pastels on my nvidia geforce 2 |
| 06:27:52 | iLLf8d | I can't always tell what the colors are cause they're so light |
| 06:27:59 | BZFlag | so any client can detect an inconsistancy and prompt a resync. |
| 06:28:11 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: heh... and that's what I plan to do somewhat for my MUD server |
| 06:28:27 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: although normal TCP usually works better for such things |
| 06:28:46 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: you can edit "redradarcolor" etc in your config. find ones you like and send em to the list. |
| 06:29:03 | iLLf8d | ah awesome heh |
| 06:29:04 | iLLf8d | cool |
| 06:29:14 | iLLf8d | which list theres a few? |
| 06:29:19 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: anything that is not so time sensitive, tcp is the way to go. |
| 06:29:50 | BZFlag | but I'm not a threads fan. select and non-blocking io are generally a better method. |
| 06:30:18 | BZFlag | real high throughput needs like web and database servers change that though. thread are a good idea there. |
| 06:30:28 | BZFlag | or just plain multiprocess. |
| 06:30:52 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: bzflag-dev or bzflag-users |
| 06:31:04 | iLLf8d | the stevens book has a chart that compares the different servers |
| 06:31:11 | iLLf8d | speeds and connections and cpu load |
| 06:31:14 | BZFlag | yep. /me has that one. |
| 06:31:39 | BZFlag | does not account for swap or cpu caching though. |
| 06:31:57 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: I prefer threads because you can keep tabs more easily on what each connection's doing |
| 06:32:17 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 06:32:24 | iLLf8d | would be interesting to do both heh |
| 06:32:24 | BZFlag | so I think it's a little biases towards multi thread/process when real world is not so much so. |
| 06:32:51 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: and, as this is to be a turn-based MUD, you don't get into the thundering herd problem |
| 06:32:56 | BZFlag | simple stats will take care of that. |
| 06:33:10 | iLLf8d | vogon which mud? |
| 06:33:21 | vogon_jeltz | iLLf8d: oh, it's going to be a MUD conversion of the RPG Paranoia |
| 06:33:23 | BZFlag | turn based MUD? that does not sound practical. |
| 06:33:28 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: it will be |
| 06:33:37 | iLLf8d | visited the 16k mud competition that was run and it was quite interesting (was my first exposure to sockets) |
| 06:33:42 | BZFlag | hmm... everyone waits for the slowest player, no? |
| 06:33:45 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: no |
| 06:34:04 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: one of the fun things about Paranoia is that you run fixed-time turns (with allotments for lag) |
| 06:34:18 | BZFlag | ah, that would work. |
| 06:34:22 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: players that don't do anything in the real world don't do anything in the game ;) |
| 06:34:30 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: and that's a good way to get shot |
| 06:34:31 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: 16k mud? |
| 06:34:34 | iLLf8d | yeah |
| 06:34:37 | iLLf8d | lemme getya a link |
| 06:34:50 | BZFlag | what't the 16k mean? |
| 06:34:59 | iLLf8d | http://www.andreasen.org/16k.shtml |
| 06:35:07 | iLLf8d | it means make a tiny codebased lug |
| 06:35:09 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: cappy and I are in an argument about whether Perl or Tcl would be better for bot scripting in 2.0 |
| 06:35:10 | iLLf8d | mud heh |
| 06:35:11 | BZFlag | http://www.andreasen.org/16k.shtml |
| 06:35:15 | iLLf8d | dunno where mud came from |
| 06:35:16 | BZFlag | ahh, you win. |
| 06:35:24 | BZFlag | could have done: |
| 06:35:33 | BZFlag | ibot: search google for 16k mud |
| 06:35:37 | | BZFlag: Google can't find 16k mud |
| 06:35:37 | iLLf8d | is pretty cool |
| 06:35:44 | BZFlag | ibot: search google for "16k mud" |
| 06:35:47 | | BZFlag: Google can't find 16k mud |
| 06:35:50 | Behomet | it looks cool |
| 06:35:54 | iLLf8d | has source and everything in a few different languages and the critiques |
| 06:35:55 | BZFlag | hmm. ibot it broken. |
| 06:36:15 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: what's the quickest way to put something into the HUD in BZFlag? :/ |
| 06:36:28 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: (the message list, specifically) |
| 06:38:50 | iLLf8d | hmm looks like they took down the sources |
| 06:38:56 | vogon_jeltz | needs to figure out where the segfault in his missile warning patch is |
| 06:39:14 | iLLf8d | vogon that will get annoying quick heh |
| 06:39:16 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 06:39:26 | vogon_jeltz | I've tracked it down to the last nesting level of the for loop... |
| 06:39:28 | iLLf8d | make it a sexy voice |
| 06:39:33 | vogon_jeltz | iLLf8d: I need it for debug messages |
| 06:39:53 | iLLf8d | just have it say i'm coming I mean missles coming heh |
| 06:39:55 | vogon_jeltz | iLLf8d: it shows up on the top-middle of the screen along with the rest of the status |
| 06:39:59 | iLLf8d | is some sexy chick voice heh |
| 06:40:12 | iLLf8d | oh damn =P |
| 06:40:36 | vogon_jeltz | with cap's HUD hack, I might be able to make it look cooler, tho |
| 06:41:02 | BZFlag | hmm... how does the client know that there is a lock? |
| 06:41:11 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: heh... that's the clever part... |
| 06:41:32 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: the lock thing is reverse-engineered from the ShotStrategy that goes along with each shot in the world database |
| 06:41:40 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: a patch on SF is fastest then anyone can find and test it. |
| 06:41:51 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: I submitted the patch months ago |
| 06:42:09 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: which patch then? |
| 06:42:11 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: on the then-newest CVS |
| 06:42:20 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: Segfault in PlayerId:Operator==() |
| 06:42:46 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: it's prolly some brown-paper-bag bug in my comparison, but you can never tell :) |
| 06:43:14 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: I could always hack up the operator code to check for null pointers, but that's not any fun ;) |
| 06:44:38 | vogon_jeltz | does, however, need some debug messages in the HUD to know exactly where the proggy dies |
| 06:45:32 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: this is posted under a bug report? |
| 06:45:36 | vogon_jeltz | yep |
| 06:46:02 | BZFlag | but it's a new feature? |
| 06:46:11 | vogon_jeltz | yeah.. a feature in progress |
| 06:46:19 | vogon_jeltz | it segfaults anytime someone fires a GM |
| 06:46:35 | lupinator | hey, i just found the missing part of my mouse + some jumpers |
| 06:47:02 | BZFlag | well, it should be in the patches section, not the bugs. I'll move it. |
| 06:47:11 | iLLf8d | lol |
| 06:47:12 | vogon_jeltz | yeah, OK... :/ |
| 06:47:23 | iLLf8d | sorry just sounded funny |
| 06:49:00 | vogon_jeltz | oh, carp |
| 06:49:16 | vogon_jeltz | that's one of the things that's wrong :/ |
| 06:49:37 | BZFlag | moved. |
| 06:50:40 | BZFlag | don't do "Code inserted -- CB" comments. that's what CVS is for. ;-) |
| 06:50:58 | vogon_jeltz | heh... I was doing that so that I could track down what code belonged to that patch |
| 06:51:20 | vogon_jeltz | I add features in bursts, and I back out the irrelevant parts for one-feature-only patches |
| 06:52:10 | vogon_jeltz | oh, duh |
| 06:52:24 | vogon_jeltz | I know one thing that's wrong |
| 06:52:48 | BZFlag | cvs and diff are your friends. ;-) just work on features one at a time in separate patch files. That's what I do. |
| 06:53:40 | BZFlag | you added 5 bytes to a buffer and only added 3 chars of text? ;-) |
| 06:53:48 | vogon_jeltz | hehehe |
| 06:54:05 | vogon_jeltz | I just don't want the buffer to overflow, and I want to make sure of it |
| 06:54:12 | iLLf8d | they were really good characters though |
| 06:54:22 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 06:54:23 | vogon_jeltz | they were big characters |
| 06:54:29 | vogon_jeltz | capitals :) |
| 06:54:42 | captain_proton | lol |
| 06:54:42 | BZFlag | heh, "large values of 3" ? |
| 06:54:46 | vogon_jeltz | yes |
| 06:55:16 | BZFlag | like: 1 + 1 = 3 for large values of 1 ? |
| 06:55:24 | vogon_jeltz | yes, precisely |
| 06:56:12 | vogon_jeltz | argh... I forgot where PlayerId was defined again |
| 06:56:25 | vogon_jeltz | n/m again |
| 06:57:25 | BZFlag | that's the broken server ip/port issue we were discussing a while ago. ;-) |
| 06:57:45 | |ks| | woohoo! working sound! |
| 06:57:53 | vogon_jeltz | I'm not sure... it was broken in the same way before you swapped to one-to-many, IIRC |
| 06:58:21 | BZFlag | yeah playerid does not deal with the udp code I fixed. |
| 06:58:34 | BZFlag | we used to have one new tcp port and one new udp port for each player. |
| 06:58:45 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... now, if I could hack up some debug messages, I'd be able to fix this ;) |
| 06:59:11 | BZFlag | I fixed udp to always be the same port (same handle even) and did not have to change the client at all or change PlayerID. tcp is not so easy a fix. |
| 06:59:27 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... |
| 07:00:16 | BZFlag | I'd also like to nuke the ping handle and merge that port as well. |
| 07:00:25 | BZFlag | pings are on 5154 iirc. |
| 07:00:38 | vogon_jeltz | heh... I'm not a netcode monkey, I'm a core-logic-code monkey |
| 07:00:58 | BZFlag | in 2.0 I want to have one udp port, on one handle and that's all. |
| 07:01:41 | vogon_jeltz | of course, in 2.0, we also want to have XML, a full OpenAL/SDL implementation, and extensible bot scripting in Tcl :) |
| 07:01:53 | BZFlag | broadcast ping, multicast, and game play all happen on the same port. |
| 07:02:21 | BZFlag | why only Tcl? |
| 07:02:28 | BZFlag | ;-) |
| 07:02:31 | vogon_jeltz | Tcl 0wnz |
| 07:02:47 | captain_proton | how about *both* |
| 07:02:50 | vogon_jeltz | you can crank up one interpreter per bot |
| 07:02:58 | BZFlag | Tcl/perl/c/java/etc. ;-) |
| 07:03:01 | vogon_jeltz | with one function call |
| 07:03:11 | vogon_jeltz | let's use UnrealScript! ;) |
| 07:03:15 | vogon_jeltz | or V12! |
| 07:03:32 | BZFlag | I do want the bots to be separate binaries soon. |
| 07:03:42 | vogon_jeltz | so do all of us :P |
| 07:03:55 | BZFlag | then the server can spawn/kill them as needed if the admin wants. |
| 07:04:13 | BZFlag | ie: max players 10, min players 5 |
| 07:04:23 | captain_proton | ewwww the font stuff is disgusting |
| 07:04:28 | BZFlag | so one joins and gets 4 bots to fight. |
| 07:04:38 | BZFlag | but 6 join and there are no bots. |
| 07:04:41 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... I could prolly hack up an implementation of the BZFlag protocol with an AI I/O system :/ |
| 07:05:09 | vogon_jeltz | you could always use system() calls to spawn them... |
| 07:05:17 | captain_proton | i had an idea: finish the radio implementation for 1.8 or 2.0 |
| 07:05:24 | BZFlag | fork then exec is fine. |
| 07:05:37 | captain_proton | requestable by the client of course |
| 07:05:44 | vogon_jeltz | or generalize the I/O to let you use some cool interpreter-fu to get a bot scripted |
| 07:05:54 | vogon_jeltz | (provide one per scripting language) |
| 07:06:10 | BZFlag | yes, there are standard voice compression protocols now, we should pick the most common and include it. |
| 07:06:12 | captain_proton | i was thinking just write libraries for the major scripting language |
| 07:06:12 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: hah... you only suggest this now that you're on broadband ;) |
| 07:06:23 | vogon_jeltz | streaming MP3 |
| 07:06:29 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: i only suggest this now that i've played counterstrike on a LAN |
| 07:06:30 | vogon_jeltz | (not) |
| 07:06:41 | BZFlag | if the bots are just binaries, then the client can exec them locally if desired. |
| 07:06:54 | captain_proton | ie a perl module |
| 07:06:56 | BZFlag | such would be an IRC logging bot. (2 way even) |
| 07:06:57 | vogon_jeltz | but then you open yourself up for DoS attacks |
| 07:07:06 | BZFlag | already open to that. |
| 07:07:18 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: open-er |
| 07:07:25 | BZFlag | nah. |
| 07:07:28 | captain_proton | that would require no changes in anything else - just a nice interface for bot scripters |
| 07:07:45 | BZFlag | bzflag -solo 20 foo.dead.server.org |
| 07:08:00 | captain_proton | yep |
| 07:08:06 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 07:08:18 | vogon_jeltz | that's pretty weak; I'm talking about malformed packets, etc. |
| 07:08:27 | BZFlag | still easy now. |
| 07:08:47 | BZFlag | that one will only be solved by a karma based registration system imho |
| 07:08:56 | captain_proton | if we just have libraries for various languages, all the packets are assembled within the library |
| 07:09:10 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: heh... I'm on it as soon as 1.7e3's out |
| 07:09:28 | BZFlag | 1.7e3 will probably not ship. the next release will be 1.7e4 |
| 07:09:33 | captain_proton | ?? |
| 07:09:34 | vogon_jeltz | hah |
| 07:09:48 | vogon_jeltz | then why don't we call off the continuation of 1.7 and start on 1.8? |
| 07:09:51 | BZFlag | lot's of folk running the CVS version now, need to differentiate them. |
| 07:10:01 | captain_proton | good point |
| 07:10:19 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: which one? :) |
| 07:10:39 | captain_proton | the CVS thing |
| 07:10:41 | BZFlag | if I do the net changes and break things then I'll move to 2.0 else either 1.7e4 or 1.8 are possible. |
| 07:10:43 | vogon_jeltz | ahh, OK :) |
| 07:11:02 | captain_proton | how about call it 1.7f0? then we're not really skipping a version |
| 07:11:18 | BZFlag | a new HUD would be 1.8 |
| 07:11:19 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... if you're open to some questionable packet-descriptor things, we can keep backward-compatibility with 1.7* |
| 07:11:37 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: minor version changes are only called for when things break compatibility |
| 07:11:49 | BZFlag | 1.7f will be skipped. might go to 1.7g though to avoid confusion with Frank's fx release. |
| 07:11:54 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: major version changes are complete rewrites, and revision changes are functionality enhancements |
| 07:11:58 | captain_proton | another good point |
| 07:12:22 | captain_proton | majors don't have to be complete, but they should at least be a good overhaul |
| 07:12:28 | vogon_jeltz | yeah |
| 07:12:40 | vogon_jeltz | of course, that doesn't always apply to things like Windows ;) |
| 07:12:51 | BZFlag | a net reworking would remove one layer of versioning to. start with 2.0.0 |
| 07:13:05 | BZFlag | er s/to/too/ |
| 07:13:25 | vogon_jeltz | and the version descriptor would be BZFS200a or something :/ |
| 07:13:27 | BZFlag | I dislike the 4 values. |
| 07:13:38 | BZFlag | BZFS2.0.0 |
| 07:13:47 | vogon_jeltz | it has to be 8 characters, IIRC |
| 07:13:56 | BZFlag | in the current net protocol, yes. |
| 07:14:05 | vogon_jeltz | oh, yeah... we're changing it... duh |
| 07:15:50 | BZFlag | I like the kernel odd/even scheme but will probably do that on minor revs. |
| 07:16:05 | BZFlag | 1.7e3 is devel, 1.7e4 release, etc. |
| 07:16:07 | vogon_jeltz | I'm leaning toward suggesting a complete rewrite for 2.x because the new media APIs will trash the hell out of the code, otherwise |
| 07:16:34 | BZFlag | perhaps 2501 will be that? ;-) |
| 07:16:36 | vogon_jeltz | for the audio code, I've already found about 50 hooks that I'll have to pull out |
| 07:17:04 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: 2501 isn't BZFlag, is it? ;) |
| 07:17:15 | BZFlag | yeah, openal/sdl could be a nice place to start, no? |
| 07:17:19 | vogon_jeltz | yep |
| 07:17:36 | vogon_jeltz | that's why I'm doing it... |
| 07:17:41 | BZFlag | 2501 is a complete rewrite along the same theme. I'm sad that it's not GPLed from the start though. |
| 07:18:01 | captain_proton | 2501 has a lot of nice stuff, but I think we should keep with the traditions of bz... |
| 07:18:02 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: doing? openAL/SDL is in progress now? |
| 07:18:05 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: that's why I'm doing these things to BZFlag |
| 07:18:08 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: yep |
| 07:18:24 | BZFlag | cool. as an alternate "platform" then? |
| 07:18:26 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: I wrote up a proof-of-concept Ogg/OpenAL player that fits in 16K of buffer room |
| 07:18:27 | captain_proton | i'd like to restructure the UI code too... |
| 07:18:42 | captain_proton | have all the UI stuff be centered in one place - including input |
| 07:18:46 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: (with 14 megs of libraries, but it won't seem so steep once we use it for other stuff) |
| 07:18:51 | captain_proton | that way it would be easy to mod/skin bzflag |
| 07:19:13 | BZFlag | captain_proton: agreed. and easier to share code tween bot and gui. |
| 07:19:17 | vogon_jeltz | that'd be fun, too :) |
| 07:19:33 | BZFlag | bot player type sill die soon to. |
| 07:19:35 | captain_proton | openal/sdl also allows us to compress sounds/images on disk |
| 07:19:44 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: yep |
| 07:19:52 | iLLf8d | skinable flag? |
| 07:19:53 | iLLf8d | hmm |
| 07:19:57 | BZFlag | all players will be the same, bot/player/observer with flags. |
| 07:20:04 | iLLf8d | may want to adopt the freeamp xml setup |
| 07:20:10 | BZFlag | I think observer will be a flag the client creates. ;-) |
| 07:20:10 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: OAL tends to be about 10% smaller than MP3, and a hell of a lot smaller than WAV |
| 07:20:37 | BZFlag | I'm thinking pause may even be a "flag" |
| 07:20:48 | captain_proton | s/OAL/ogg/g |
| 07:20:53 | vogon_jeltz | yeah |
| 07:20:55 | vogon_jeltz | duh |
| 07:20:57 | iLLf8d | thats no good |
| 07:21:01 | iLLf8d | what about ph |
| 07:21:09 | captain_proton | ph? |
| 07:21:10 | BZFlag | "pause flag" is not good for bad flags though |
| 07:21:13 | iLLf8d | phone calls |
| 07:21:14 | vogon_jeltz | and I'm toying with using PhysicsFS |
| 07:21:26 | iLLf8d | has to pause often |
| 07:21:27 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 07:21:37 | captain_proton | why would pause be a flag?? |
| 07:21:42 | iLLf8d | I do think there should be a pause frequency though |
| 07:21:50 | iLLf8d | only so many times per interval |
| 07:21:52 | iLLf8d | heh =P |
| 07:21:55 | vogon_jeltz | or timeouts, etc. |
| 07:22:03 | iLLf8d | too many pussy pausers out there |
| 07:22:10 | BZFlag | imagine a world with one and only one GM flag. a player enters and grabs it then pauses. they have now changed the world. |
| 07:22:25 | BZFlag | that's why the team flag dropping on pause was added. |
| 07:22:43 | captain_proton | i think flag drop on pause should happen |
| 07:22:51 | captain_proton | except for bad of course ;) |
| 07:22:53 | iLLf8d | yeah that would be cool |
| 07:23:04 | iLLf8d | or even a die on pause =) |
| 07:23:06 | lupinator | i suggest to pu a paused tank off the field |
| 07:23:08 | captain_proton | no iLLf8d |
| 07:23:10 | iLLf8d | that would be even cooler |
| 07:23:10 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 07:23:13 | lupinator | like a dead tank |
| 07:23:16 | captain_proton | that defeats the point of pausing |
| 07:23:27 | iLLf8d | whatya mean |
| 07:23:37 | BZFlag | perhaps die, but not change score? |
| 07:23:39 | iLLf8d | you can't be killed again with the cracks and you lose one point |
| 07:23:46 | lupinator | BZFlag: yep |
| 07:23:48 | iLLf8d | a pause without the key |
| 07:23:49 | vogon_jeltz | lupinator: there's no point in that, because paused tanks can't be shot... and if you choose a good place, you won't be pause-camped |
| 07:24:00 | captain_proton | well, when someone pauses (not to evade shots, which is annoying), its because they have an offline issue to handle |
| 07:24:12 | captain_proton | if you lost a point, you could just let yourself die |
| 07:24:14 | lupinator | most players pause in the center of the field. that is annoying |
| 07:24:28 | captain_proton | yes - i agree that paused should disappear until they come back |
| 07:24:35 | captain_proton | maybe leave a marker where they are |
| 07:24:36 | BZFlag | hmmm. me is thinking pause is die without points. |
| 07:24:49 | captain_proton | sounds good |
| 07:24:54 | iLLf8d | likes die with points |
| 07:25:02 | iLLf8d | they're there to game PLAY or DIE heh |
| 07:25:04 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: there's a way to do that... you can always... hmm... not render paused tanks? :) |
| 07:25:16 | BZFlag | iLLf8d: just shoot yourself off a wall then. ;-) |
| 07:25:36 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: you still lock on to them with gm |
| 07:25:48 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: no, not as of about a month ago |
| 07:25:49 | lupinator | i prefer killing myself to pausing |
| 07:25:52 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: that has it's own issues. your teammate could tell you when to rejoin. |
| 07:26:14 | iLLf8d | pause flag would be good to kill paused people |
| 07:26:15 | iLLf8d | =) |
| 07:26:17 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 07:26:21 | captain_proton | thats why I say leave a marker |
| 07:26:24 | iLLf8d | just one per field |
| 07:26:38 | BZFlag | heh, PausersDie flag. ;-) |
| 07:26:52 | |ks| | wonders if increasing the length of time from 3 seconds to, say, 5 or 10 seconds would be enough to prevent "strategic pausing" |
| 07:26:53 | iLLf8d | make it so you have to shoot them at least |
| 07:26:58 | BZFlag | the capped tank is the marker now. |
| 07:27:01 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: OK, didn't understand... thought you were talking about a logic marker |
| 07:27:14 | captain_proton | no - a visual marker to tell where the person was when they paused |
| 07:27:21 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: yeah, I know now ;) |
| 07:27:32 | captain_proton | perhaps turn blending on and have an alpha of 15% or so... |
| 07:27:34 | BZFlag | |ks|: hmm, 5 might be better if they are going to move after pausing. |
| 07:27:45 | iLLf8d | oh a timed pause would be great |
| 07:27:46 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: maybe a shot decal in their color? |
| 07:27:54 | BZFlag | captain_proton: like the phased tanks? |
| 07:28:16 | lupinator | btw, do you know why the shell is only drawn when you are very near? |
| 07:28:24 | captain_proton | sortof |
| 07:28:27 | vogon_jeltz | lupinator: driver problem |
| 07:28:27 | lupinator | at least that is the case for me |
| 07:28:37 | vogon_jeltz | lupinator: DRI has some depth buffer issues |
| 07:28:38 | |ks| | bz: thinking specifically of the "oh shit, I'm gonna die" pausers... the longer it takes to pause, the less usefull it is |
| 07:28:41 | captain_proton | maybe change the phased tanks to draw an aura as well to differentiate |
| 07:28:42 | BZFlag | nope. I thought it was a mesa bug, but it's on win* systems too, right? |
| 07:28:44 | lupinator | ah |
| 07:28:56 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: it's a driver-specific thing |
| 07:29:05 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: nVidia's drivers don't do it, but most others do |
| 07:29:05 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 07:29:13 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: I think folks see it on win* systems, no? |
| 07:29:28 | iLLf8d | would be cool to give tanks a life force (high scorers have an ominous goal and losers are all dark heh |
| 07:29:29 | iLLf8d | =P |
| 07:29:32 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: heh... I'm talking about *drivers*, not OpenGL implementations |
| 07:29:42 | lupinator | i only saw it with mesa stuff |
| 07:29:51 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: it's a depth-buffer issue somewhere |
| 07:29:52 | iLLf8d | s/goal/slow |
| 07:29:58 | captain_proton | what about nvidia's drivers? |
| 07:30:03 | iLLf8d | typos s/goal/glow |
| 07:30:05 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: theirs seem to work fine |
| 07:30:10 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: as am I. linux drivers almost all use some form of mesa, and windows drivers almost never do. |
| 07:30:41 | iLLf8d | makes things easy huh |
| 07:30:41 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 07:30:44 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: hmm... OK... I'm just saying it's a low-level thing |
| 07:30:44 | iLLf8d | heh |
| 07:30:52 | lupinator | when it is a driver issue, why does it happen with software rendering, too? |
| 07:31:00 | vogon_jeltz | lupinator: ehh, whatever :P |
| 07:31:06 | BZFlag | heh a game mode where tank/shot speed is inverse of player rank would be interesting |
| 07:31:08 | vogon_jeltz | it could be a Mesa issue :) |
| 07:31:08 | lupinator | well, i blame mesa |
| 07:31:47 | vogon_jeltz | yeah, Mesa 3.5 borks up the text in BZFlag |
| 07:31:48 | BZFlag | the more you kill the slower you move. ;-) |
| 07:31:55 | vogon_jeltz | I have to play without texturing or the text is all corrupted |
| 07:32:15 | vogon_jeltz | of course, Mesa 3.4.2 corrupts the texturing in Tribes2... |
| 07:32:38 | lupinator | do you know which mesa ships with x 4.1? |
| 07:32:38 | vogon_jeltz | the opening menus, anyway |
| 07:32:39 | BZFlag | it might me a good test to change the ground to a tiled texture. |
| 07:32:41 | captain_proton | http://developer.nvidia.com/docs/IO/1246/ATT/teapot.jpg <---- /me thinks this should be added as a rendering mode |
| 07:32:44 | iLLf8d | can't you just give everyone high speed and lose the speed flags |
| 07:32:45 | vogon_jeltz | lupinator: Mesa 3.4.2 |
| 07:32:48 | iLLf8d | that would make the games rock |
| 07:33:11 | iLLf8d | or make it a server option at least |
| 07:33:20 | captain_proton | ok, time for sleep |
| 07:33:31 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: nn |
| 07:33:40 | iLLf8d | seeya capn |
| 07:33:40 | BZFlag | captain_proton: that's just white with shading no? |
| 07:33:43 | lupinator | good night captain |
| 07:34:32 | vogon_jeltz | watches an old ep of SCTV |
| 07:34:56 | BZFlag | well, I gotta run too. someone want to write up a summary and post to the -devel list please? |
| 07:35:13 | vogon_jeltz | "May the good Lord take a likin' to ya and blow ya up reeeeal good!" |
| 07:35:14 | BZFlag | just to continue the conversation. ;-) |
| 07:35:32 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 07:35:35 | vogon_jeltz | bye |
| 07:36:02 | iLLf8d | seeya |
| 07:36:15 | iLLf8d | is gonna go read i'll catchya tomorrow |
| 07:38:02 | vogon_jeltz | hi, yem |
| 07:55:14 | yem | heya vogon_jeltz |
| 08:02:56 | vogon_jeltz | hi, Mystix |
| 08:03:14 | Mystix | hi ! |
| 08:58:03 | Mystix | bye |
| 08:58:32 | vogon_jeltz | can I get a w00t? |
| 10:16:42 | vogon_jeltz | is away: sleep |
| 12:19:40 | lupinator | hi chestal |
| 12:20:08 | lupinator | i found some cows |
| 12:20:10 | lupinator | (___) (___) (___) |
| 12:20:10 | lupinator | (0 0) (0 0) (0 0) |
| 12:20:10 | lupinator | \ / \ / \ / |
| 12:20:10 | lupinator | __[_V_]__ __[_V_]__ __[_V_]__ |
| 12:20:10 | lupinator | /_________\===: /_________\===: /_________\===: |
| 12:20:11 | lupinator | \OOO---OOO/ \OOO---OOO/ \OOO---OOO/ |
| 12:20:13 | lupinator | Cowed Forces |
| 12:35:48 | Chestal | hmm |
| 12:46:36 | Mystix | hi :) |
| 12:46:46 | Chestal | hi Mystix |
| 12:47:45 | Mystix | Chestal: I'm interested in doing a translation of bzflag... have any of the developer thought about that? :) |
| 12:55:26 | Chestal | Mystix: well, it occured to me some time ago, but it never was a high priority for me |
| 12:55:48 | Chestal | Mystix: I guess currently most messages are distributed all over the code |
| 12:56:16 | Mystix | Chestal: difficult to find them so.. isn't it? |
| 12:56:56 | Chestal | yes, to do localized version these shoudl all be put into some central repository |
| 12:57:14 | Chestal | Mystix: I wonder if it's worth the effort. |
| 12:57:54 | Mystix | ok :) |
| 12:58:51 | Mystix | it was a curiosity only.. you can play the game without knowing very english (like my poor english hehe) |
| 13:04:40 | Chestal | where are you from? |
| 13:04:48 | Chestal | do I know you fromthe battlefields? |
| 13:05:34 | Mystix | From Spain |
| 13:05:37 | Mystix | I think no |
| 13:05:52 | Mystix | or my memory is not too good :) |
| 13:06:11 | Chestal | I play on ducati only, it's my server |
| 13:06:16 | Chestal | which settings do you like best? |
| 13:06:38 | Mystix | 3 bullets, jump! hehe, ricochet |
| 13:06:47 | Mystix | I use to play with those |
| 13:06:48 | Mystix | :) |
| 13:07:48 | Chestal | I never play with jumping enabled |
| 13:07:54 | Chestal | ducati is 2 shots, no jump, rico |
| 13:08:16 | Chestal | currently I removed all flags, might bring them back, though |
| 13:09:01 | Mystix | Some flags are very powerful.. guided missile and laser. I'll like to disable the flags that I want.. it might be possible in a nearest future? |
| 13:10:53 | Chestal | AFAIK you can already specify which flags you want on the server and which you don't |
| 13:11:01 | Chestal | I never tried it, though |
| 13:11:06 | Chestal | GM isn't that powerful without jumping |
| 13:11:58 | Mystix | you can? sorry... maybe I didn't found it ;)º |
| 13:12:21 | Mystix | but with teletransporters.. you can achieve high positions.. and the GM becomes deathly hehe |
| 13:13:26 | Chestal | well, I only use standard randomly generated worlds, I'm no fan of the custom multi-level worlds |
| 13:14:03 | Chestal | you can specify the flags with +f <id> or -f <id>, see man bzfs |
| 13:17:07 | Mystix | Maybe I'll put up a bzflag server.. I haven't a very fast connection (256k/128k ADSL). Will be that a problem? |
| 13:19:55 | Chestal | your upstream bandwidth is the limiting factor |
| 13:20:02 | Chestal | depends onthe number of players, of course |
| 13:20:48 | Chestal | but I can't give you any numbers |
| 13:23:39 | Mystix | I'll try :-) |
| 13:44:28 | firegod | I did. |
| 13:45:13 | firegod | I'd love to be able to drive up ramps.. |
| 13:45:48 | Mystix | I can't put any description to the server ... my server appears as "debianbox" only.. and i did: bzfs -j -h -mp 10 -ms 3 -public BcnBattlefield -publicaddr BcBattlefield:5155 +r -st 15 -t & |
| 13:46:45 | Mystix | maybe is ... -public "BcnBattlfield" ? |
| 13:47:18 | firegod | I used ""s |
| 13:49:17 | Mystix | trying s |
| 13:49:21 | Mystix | trying s |
| 13:49:28 | Mystix | oops... damn irc client :) |
| 13:52:21 | Mystix | well.. same result hehe |
| 13:52:29 | Mystix | can you see "debianbox" on the servers list? |
| 13:53:55 | Chestal | hmm, you should give a fully qualified name to -publicaddr or skip it |
| 13:54:44 | Mystix | bzfs -j -h -mp 10 -ms 3 -public BcnBattlefield -publicaddr 213.97.160.250:5155 +r -st 15 -t & |
| 13:54:45 | Mystix | :) |
| 13:56:32 | Chestal | it's in the server list but I can't connect? |
| 13:56:46 | firegod | sounds familiar |
| 13:56:51 | Mystix | uhm |
| 13:57:16 | Mystix | I've opened the port 5155 in my adsl router.. I must open more ports? :) |
| 13:57:52 | Chestal | hmm, maybe for udp but that shouldn't be the problem yet |
| 13:58:01 | Chestal | I'm pingign your machine, high round trip times, about 700ms |
| 13:58:09 | Chestal | 25% packet loss |
| 13:58:22 | Chestal | but I cannot connect to port 5155 |
| 13:58:28 | Mystix | Maybe an ISP problem? |
| 13:58:33 | Chestal | you acn connect locally? |
| 13:58:38 | Mystix | yes, I can |
| 13:58:40 | Chestal | ah, I am connected |
| 13:58:43 | Chestal | took a loooong time |
| 13:58:46 | Chestal | just a bad connection |
| 13:59:09 | Mystix | two months ago my isp got problems routing packets out of spain.. maybe is that :(( |
| 14:21:07 | Mystix | bye all :) |
| 16:45:34 | captain_proton | who is here? |
| 16:45:50 | Chestal | me |
| 16:45:53 | | hello, captain_proton |
| 16:45:53 | captain_proton | hi |
| 16:46:05 | | you know how it is |
| 16:46:05 | captain_proton | ibot, how are you? |
| 16:46:33 | captain_proton | i do? |
| 16:46:39 | captain_proton | so...whats up Chestal? |
| 16:47:04 | Chestal | not much, I'm working |
| 16:47:26 | Chestal | trying to find a strange bugs for hours |
| 16:47:36 | captain_proton | strange bugs in what? |
| 16:48:21 | Chestal | in a c++ program |
| 16:48:39 | Chestal | it's part of a distributed optimization |
| 16:48:44 | captain_proton | hmmm |
| 16:50:09 | Chestal | and I only wanted to try a quick hack to see if it's working... |
| 16:51:12 | Chestal | waah, I found it, silly me |
| 16:51:19 | Chestal | at least I think so, will have to test |
| 16:51:51 | captain_proton | heh |
| 16:55:19 | Chestal | much better now |
| 17:02:22 | captain_proton | what do you think of adding the capability to mod bzflag? |
| 17:05:47 | Chestal | hmm? |
| 17:06:08 | captain_proton | like dynamically add new flags and give people the ability to download the new flag when they connect? |
| 17:15:37 | Chestal | so, change client behaviour dynamically by some kind of script language? |
| 17:16:04 | Chestal | that would require a major redesign I guess |
| 17:16:27 | Chestal | I myself actually do not want to change too much about bzflag |
| 17:16:37 | Chestal | it's the small things that should be enhanced |
| 17:16:43 | Chestal | first priority: fix those damn bugs |
| 17:27:00 | captain_proton | we've been coming up with a wish list for 1.8 and/or 2.0 |
| 17:29:10 | captain_proton | most of the stuff is in the back-end |
| 17:29:14 | captain_proton | to make our lives easeir |
| 17:46:19 | BZFlag | network based server administration is one I'd like to see soon. ;-) that and nickserv/karma system. |
| 17:47:25 | captain_proton | BZFlag: can you dcc? |
| 17:51:12 | BZFlag | I doubt it. why? |
| 17:52:20 | captain_proton | i was just going to send you the current wishlist i typed up |
| 17:52:38 | BZFlag | the wiki is your friend. ;-) |
| 17:52:43 | captain_proton | heh |
| 17:52:45 | captain_proton | how about I paste? |
| 17:52:58 | BZFlag | I'm headed out now... |
| 17:53:07 | BZFlag | wiki it, please. ;-) |
| 17:53:09 | captain_proton | ahh ok |
| 19:16:04 | Mystix | hi |
| 19:16:48 | vogon_jeltz | hi |
| 19:26:39 | Chestal | we really have to find those lost messages bug |
| 19:28:16 | Chestal | there are several problems which are related to this bug |
| 19:28:38 | vogon_jeltz | in the next minor version, we can force a resync if any inconsistencies occur (originally proposed by BZFlag yesterday) |
| 19:28:43 | Chestal | sometimes kiler doesn't score, tank got flag but doesn't know, mesages written with 'n' aren't echoed |
| 19:29:04 | Chestal | yes, but it should be possible to find this bug |
| 19:29:13 | vogon_jeltz | it's not a bug |
| 19:29:14 | Chestal | somethign in the TCP msg layer obviiusly is borken somewhere |
| 19:29:21 | Chestal | happens only rarely |
| 19:29:32 | vogon_jeltz | MsgFlagUpdates are sent over UDP, IIRC |
| 19:29:36 | Chestal | messages get lost somehow on the way fromthe serevr to the client |
| 19:29:51 | Chestal | no, UDP is only PlayerUpdate, ShotBegin, ShotEnd and GMUpdate |
| 19:29:53 | vogon_jeltz | and, since UDP is connectionless, messages occasionally die before they get somewhere |
| 19:30:10 | Chestal | these are msgs transmitted over the tcp connection which get lost |
| 19:30:11 | vogon_jeltz | OK, but some of those messages can screw up stuff, too, if they're lost |
| 19:30:37 | Chestal | well, for PlayerUpdate it's ok |
| 19:30:40 | vogon_jeltz | thinks we should implement a sequence number |
| 19:33:11 | Chestal | I haven't looked at the protocol that closely yet |
| 19:33:27 | Chestal | thinks about adding some debug stuff so lost messages might get detected somehow |
| 19:33:47 | Chestal | I guess if we get rid of this, the 2 or 3 most annoying bugs will be gone with it |
| 19:42:23 | BZFlag | at least there should be some packet validation code added. discard messages from or about unknown users, and then kill them ;-) |
| 19:45:11 | Chestal | I will try to hun tthose lost msgs |
| 19:45:19 | Chestal | I did some experiments with the help of other playes |
| 19:45:36 | Chestal | and it is confirmed that msgs get lost from server to client (only to one client for broadcast messges) |
| 19:46:37 | Chestal | willnow try to automatically reproduce the bug then I can start debugging it |
| 19:58:17 | vogon_jeltz | damn lag |
| 19:58:32 | vogon_jeltz | I was at +4, then all of a sudden, everything lagged out |
| 19:59:02 | vogon_jeltz | soon enough, I'm at -3 and falling |
| 19:59:16 | captain_proton | grr they're not letting me shower |
| 19:59:19 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: hi |
| 19:59:41 | vogon_jeltz | captain_proton: heh... DemonMoose and I were playing on your server... he sucks, even compared to me ;) |
| 19:59:51 | captain_proton | thats because he just started playing yesterday |
| 19:59:55 | vogon_jeltz | oh, OK :/ |
| 20:00:16 | captain_proton | my mouse shipped :) |
| 20:00:20 | vogon_jeltz | 'course, BZFlag was the first FPS I ever played... he has CS experience, right? :) |
| 20:00:29 | vogon_jeltz | (CS == Counter-Strike) |
| 20:00:48 | captain_proton | loads |
| 20:01:20 | captain_proton | but bzflag is very differen than most fps games |
| 20:04:30 | captain_proton | any additions? |
| 20:04:45 | vogon_jeltz | is working on some |
| 20:06:12 | captain_proton | nice |
| 20:06:16 | vogon_jeltz | I also claimed a couple of projects ;) |
| 20:06:28 | captain_proton | i see |
| 20:06:35 | vogon_jeltz | can't get enough of registration and statistics |
| 20:07:07 | vogon_jeltz | I got a fully-working authentication server (on a proprietary protocol) working in about 500 lines of Visual Basic, back in the day |
| 20:07:47 | captain_proton | ewww vb |
| 20:07:54 | vogon_jeltz | yes, eww... |
| 20:10:14 | captain_proton | we should set it up so a server config can set an authentication server (have a default one, just like a default list server) |
| 20:10:24 | captain_proton | then they can have a local registration if they like |
| 20:10:29 | vogon_jeltz | yeah |
| 20:10:34 | vogon_jeltz | for tournaments and the like |
| 20:10:51 | vogon_jeltz | now, we have to figure out a karma system |
| 20:11:12 | captain_proton | i suggest we also build in a message filtering system (server side) that is configurable |
| 20:11:22 | vogon_jeltz | good idea |
| 20:11:37 | captain_proton | that way I could keep the bad language out of my server |
| 20:11:44 | captain_proton | usually such things just filter out racial slurs |
| 20:13:29 | Chestal | hmm, interesting, lost messages seem to get more frequent with a bad connection to the server |
| 20:13:48 | vogon_jeltz | wow... next, you'll be telling us that the sky is blue ;) |
| 20:13:57 | captain_proton | guess what: |
| 20:14:03 | captain_proton | the sky is blue |
| 20:14:13 | vogon_jeltz | whoa... you're freaking me out, man |
| 20:14:19 | Chestal | vogon: well, I am quite amazed in fact because there are going over TCP |
| 20:14:33 | vogon_jeltz | heh... TCP packets time out from time to time |
| 20:14:45 | captain_proton | i'm betting the ttl is too small |
| 20:14:49 | Chestal | as long as the TCP connection itself is stable, no data must be lost |
| 20:15:26 | captain_proton | thats the only reason tcp should lose stuff... |
| 20:16:31 | Chestal | it can't be this |
| 20:16:37 | Chestal | ttl parameter is only for the UDP stuff |
| 20:16:43 | Chestal | I'll investigate |
| 20:17:01 | Chestal | I do not know the bowels of the bz communications, though |
| 20:19:12 | captain_proton | takes ownership of a couple of projects on the list |
| 20:19:24 | captain_proton | just 1 actually |
| 20:55:12 | BZFlag | msg filters should include warning message and kick ability. |
| 20:55:27 | BZFlag | but, a good karma system may handle that as well. |
| 20:55:41 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 20:55:49 | vogon_jeltz | I want to draw up a karma flow diagram |
| 20:56:02 | vogon_jeltz | thinks that karma should be earned based on playing time |
| 20:56:13 | Chestal | digs into the depths of the bz networking |
| 20:56:20 | BZFlag | vogon_jeltz: I can give you my thoughts... |
| 20:56:31 | Chestal | does any of you fully understand the bz networking? |
| 20:56:33 | vogon_jeltz | also thinks that each account should require a valid e-mail for registration |
| 20:56:47 | vogon_jeltz | *also* thinks that anyone cheating should have their e-mail blacklisted |
| 20:58:02 | Chestal | bzfs seems to use queues of constant length 1..hmm |
| 20:58:09 | BZFlag | I'm thinking ssl with dh-dsa keys.... |
| 20:58:18 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... good idea |
| 20:58:22 | BZFlag | so a user registers and gets a 0 rank. anyone can. |
| 20:58:36 | BZFlag | this can be done right in the game or in a web browser. |
| 20:58:50 | BZFlag | the bzfls server is a CA and knows about all the keys. |
| 20:58:59 | vogon_jeltz | still thinks that registration should require a valid e-mail, even if it is a throwaway |
| 20:59:06 | BZFlag | web pages can use the client side key for authentication too. |
| 20:59:27 | BZFlag | yes, email must work at the time of registration. |
| 21:00:16 | BZFlag | ssl client key notification is mailed, with temp password. user logs in and is then given rank of 0. |
| 21:01:16 | Chestal | hmm, the TCP send buffer management looks somewhat complicated |
| 21:01:16 | BZFlag | bzclient presents key sig to bzfs, bzfs presents same key plus server key to bzfls, bzfls issues server and client challenges |
| 21:02:05 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... |
| 21:02:14 | vogon_jeltz | I'll need your help for this... |
| 21:02:23 | vogon_jeltz | isn't good with public/private key trust models yet |
| 21:02:24 | BZFlag | server passes challenge to client who sign/decrypts it and then reencrypts with server pub key. response goes to bzfls who confirms both keys. |
| 21:03:17 | BZFlag | now anyone with email can get a new key. some servers will require higher than 0 keys to get in. |
| 21:03:31 | BZFlag | some may grant admin privs and some "higher" value. |
| 21:03:51 | BZFlag | admins of reliable live servers get auto ++ on karma. |
| 21:04:16 | BZFlag | users can ++ or -- other users only once. |
| 21:04:17 | vogon_jeltz | developers get karma bonuses (I need such privs to test out context-sensitive patches) |
| 21:04:55 | vogon_jeltz | for my missile lock patch, we had to drive around for half an hour trying to find a GM flag |
| 21:04:59 | BZFlag | overall karma is determined by who has ranked you, and how you compare to to others that person has ranked, and how well that person is ranked themselves. |
| 21:05:50 | BZFlag | developers can setup thier own server and have local "owner" access. They do not automatically get any bonus in the trust-web. |
| 21:06:04 | vogon_jeltz | hmm... OL |
| 21:06:06 | vogon_jeltz | OK, even |
| 21:06:10 | BZFlag | of course, if the trust-web works, others will be ++ing them anyway. |
| 21:06:16 | vogon_jeltz | yeah ;) |
| 21:06:58 | vogon_jeltz | also thinks that kicking someone from a server should come with an implicit -- to the kick-ee |
| 21:07:10 | Chestal | I'm still baffled by this msg loss thing, somethign has to be wrong somehwere |
| 21:07:28 | Chestal | BZFlag: do you understand bzfs networking? |
| 21:07:35 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 21:07:48 | vogon_jeltz | he should, or I'm leaving this project right now ;) |
| 21:07:59 | Chestal | well, he didn't write most of it :-) |
| 21:08:05 | BZFlag | agreed. getting kicked has a -- implication. |
| 21:08:07 | vogon_jeltz | yes, but he rewrote a good deal |
| 21:08:17 | BZFlag | Chestal: better than most. ;-) |
| 21:08:25 | Chestal | I suspect there is some error inthe buffer management |
| 21:08:52 | Chestal | BZFlag: bzfs manages TCP send buffers for each player. Is this for doing a fair round robin scheduling of outgoing packets? |
| 21:08:53 | vogon_jeltz | Chestal: tried jamming some debug messages in and running netcat? |
| 21:08:59 | BZFlag | Chestal: hmmm. I've not seen anything that would lead me to that conclusion. |
| 21:09:10 | Chestal | BZFlag: msg get lost from serevr to client |
| 21:09:12 | Chestal | I can prove it :-) |
| 21:09:33 | BZFlag | bzfs is using select() to determine when outgoing pipes are writeable. |
| 21:09:36 | Chestal | the probability of msgs getting lost increases with decrease of conenction quality |
| 21:10:04 | vogon_jeltz | thinks that the client is making an incorrect assumption when it comes to flag drops |
| 21:10:21 | Chestal | what about flag drops? |
| 21:10:32 | BZFlag | It will give the capped msg and start dropping packets if a client is not writable often enough. |
| 21:10:45 | vogon_jeltz | occasionally, a player will think he has dropped a flag when everybody else (including the server) doesn't |
| 21:10:54 | BZFlag | but no tcp packets should be lost if there is no capped msg. |
| 21:11:21 | Chestal | there is a mximum send buffer which can overflow, player gets kicked them |
| 21:11:24 | Chestal | but htis is not the case here |
| 21:11:28 | BZFlag | if a client is capped by the server and does not know it, the packet can get lost. |
| 21:11:41 | Chestal | I patches my client to send about 10 messages (as typed with 'n') per second |
| 21:11:48 | | and is the keyboard IR port programmable? |
| 21:11:48 | BZFlag | and? |
| 21:11:56 | | BZFlag: I forgot and |
| 21:11:56 | BZFlag | ibot forget and |
| 21:12:01 | Chestal | if I connect to some far away server, some of these messages are not received by the client |
| 21:12:02 | | thanks vogon_jeltz :) |
| 21:12:02 | vogon_jeltz | ibot, botsnack |
| 21:12:38 | Chestal | when I test it with my local server, I get no lost messages |
| 21:13:36 | BZFlag | Chestal: hmmm... are you just incrementing a value to be sure you see or don't see all of them? |
| 21:14:25 | Chestal | BZFlag: I send @0 @1 @2 and so on |
| 21:14:38 | Chestal | BZFlag: I filter those out when receiving and check if they're consecutive |
| 21:15:00 | Chestal | I wil now check if these msgs get lost are if there are invalid msgs received by the client |
| 21:16:55 | Chestal | BZFlag: at least the 'can't pick up flag' and the 'kilelr doesnt score' bug are related to these lost msgs |
| 21:17:02 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: I think that karma value should be as follows: people < your karma at the time of ranking should give worthless karma mods; people => your karma give increasingly valuable karma mods as their karma increases to infinity |
| 21:17:46 | BZFlag | people with small karma have much less influence, but not none. |
| 21:18:39 | BZFlag | I would suggest that people below 0 not be able to karma people to over, say 1 or so. |
| 21:19:08 | BZFlag | if 8 people get new keys and ++ each other, they should be able to get on some servers. but not the best ones. |
| 21:19:33 | vogon_jeltz | yeak |
| 21:19:36 | vogon_jeltz | yeah, even |
| 21:19:37 | BZFlag | someone in the 8 needs to be ++ed by some higher trusted soul. |
| 21:19:49 | vogon_jeltz | and that's what I propose |
| 21:20:00 | BZFlag | so the trust-net will need to be seeded at the start. |
| 21:20:14 | vogon_jeltz | I think negatively-karmaed people shouldn't be able to give mods to anyone |
| 21:20:37 | vogon_jeltz | people with positive karma, but with less than yours, should give partial-value karma mods |
| 21:21:06 | vogon_jeltz | and people with greater or equal karma should give full-value ones |
| 21:28:46 | BZFlag | hmmm... if every single negatively karma'ed person --s you, that should have an impact. |
| 21:29:03 | BZFlag | so it's not no impact, it's just very small impact. |
| 21:29:45 | vogon_jeltz | well, they've obviously done something wrong to deserve a negative karma, so it's kind of a "pot calling the kettle black |
| 21:29:48 | vogon_jeltz | " situation |
| 21:29:59 | BZFlag | I want a trust-net revolution to be possible, but extremely unlikely. |
| 21:30:37 | vogon_jeltz | heh |
| 21:30:49 | | will be effected by other things, like activity rates and to a small degree win/loss ratio. has neutral karma |
| 21:30:49 | BZFlag | karma will be effected by other things, like activity rates and to a small degree win/loss ratio. |
| 21:31:19 | vogon_jeltz | the problem is, I suck at BZFlag, but I don't want to lose karma because of it |
| 21:31:24 | BZFlag | heh, ibot, you crack me up |
| 21:32:45 | BZFlag | win/loss is not a very important indicator, but generally folks that play well are to be trusted. this is true only if they have been playing a lot and play well though, a new player that plays well is either good, or cheating. ;-) |
| 21:33:22 | vogon_jeltz | yes, and that's the problem |
| 21:33:50 | vogon_jeltz | if cheaters get positive karma for winning, eventually they'll have enough to mod down the nay-sayers |
| 21:34:14 | vogon_jeltz | in addition, you also open yourself up to blackmail |
| 21:34:36 | vogon_jeltz | people who suck but cheat can force others to play badly under threat of negative moderation |
| 21:34:39 | BZFlag | it need to only happen over time, and be easily outweighed by a number of -- votes for suspected cheating. |
| 21:35:32 | BZFlag | but just being active and not getting -- votes is worth ++ to you. |
| 21:35:42 | Chestal | hmm, tcpdump is beyond me |
| 21:36:00 | Chestal | I just want to log all tcp packets from a specific host |
| 21:36:10 | BZFlag | tcpdump host foo |
| 21:36:28 | BZFlag | that will get you packets to and from foo. |
| 21:36:44 | Chestal | I want to exclude UDP, though |
| 21:36:59 | Chestal | tcpdump src host foo works, but I guess I'm getting UDP also |
| 21:37:32 | |ks| | "and not proto udp" iirc |
| 21:37:42 | |ks| | or "and proto tcp" |
| 21:37:44 | Chestal | I will try |
| 21:38:10 | BZFlag | just "and tcp" |
| 21:38:18 | Chestal | hmm |
| 21:38:48 | Chestal | the TCP connection between bzfs anf bzflag shpuld be mostly idle or am I missing something? |
| 21:39:22 | BZFlag | yes tcp is mostly idle if udp is on. |
| 21:39:42 | vogon_jeltz | BZFlag: what do you figure the odds are of a packet being malformed on its way to the target based on line noise? |
| 21:40:00 | Chestal | hmm, I receive som eudp packets but lots of tcppackets, though? OrI am misinterpreting tcpdump output |
| 21:40:01 | BZFlag | depends how bad the line noise is. ;-) |
| 21:40:23 | BZFlag | not very likely for tcp, as it will retry if crc is wrong |
| 21:40:35 | BZFlag | for udp anything is possible. |
| 21:40:39 | Chestal | I receive about 20-30 tcp packets per second, hmm |
| 21:40:57 | Chestal | isn't there a crc in udp header also? or is it even in ip header? |
| 21:41:15 | Chestal | it's _very_ unliekly that packets get malformed |
| 21:41:23 | BZFlag | hmm... don't recall and "stevens" is home. |
| 21:41:25 | Chestal | lot's of layers doing crc :-) |
| 21:42:09 | Chestal | ah, sillyme |
| 21:42:16 | |ks| | I think there's at least a couple layers with crcs |
| 21:42:19 | Chestal | I know where thos tcp packets come from, these are my test packets :-) |
| 21:42:28 | |ks| | hehe |
| 21:43:17 | |ks| | aside from sound, does bz create any threads? |
| 21:43:30 | |ks| | perhaps a race condition somewhere? |
| 21:43:38 | BZFlag | hm, yes udp has a checksum as well. |
| 21:45:00 | Chestal | ks: no other threads |
| 21:45:15 | Chestal | hmmph, pakcet loss is too low on this server, have to find a one which is worse |
| 21:45:43 | vogon_jeltz | why not run a local server, ssh into another box not on the LAN, and floodping it? :) |
| 22:03:29 | captain_proton | vogon_jeltz: i'd be happy to help devise an algorithm for the trust-web |
| 22:06:02 | vogon_jeltz | heh... OK :) |
| 22:06:18 | captain_proton | one big dynamic algorithm :0 |
| 22:06:25 | captain_proton | s/:0/:)/g |
| 22:06:26 | vogon_jeltz | cool |
| 22:06:44 | captain_proton | damnit they still haven't fixed the water here |
| 22:07:09 | captain_proton | i want to shower |
| 22:09:09 | captain_proton | ooh! /dev/blanket |
| 22:09:11 | vogon_jeltz | wants one :) |
| 22:09:44 | vogon_jeltz | ever tried getting gdb to debug itself? :) |
| 22:09:48 | captain_proton | no |
| 22:09:54 | vogon_jeltz | it's funny |
| 22:10:24 | captain_proton | lol: tg has matching t-shirts: "don't blame me, its a hardware/software problem" |
| 22:11:25 | captain_proton | I also like the "damn campers" shirt |
| 22:12:15 | captain_proton | "my computer is bigger, better, and faster than yours" |
| 22:12:22 | vogon_jeltz | hah |
| 22:12:52 | captain_proton | in this case its very true |
| 22:13:19 | captain_proton | care for a small HUD hack to make the player list less intrusive? |
| 22:13:49 | vogon_jeltz | sure, I guess |
| 22:26:57 | captain_proton | executes mv smallfonts.patch hard2read.patch |
| 22:29:19 | captain_proton | hi huk |
| 22:29:23 | huk | This irc client costed 10 pennies |
| 22:29:28 | huk | cost |
| 22:29:39 | captain_proton | mine was free |
| 22:30:07 | huk | where |
| 22:30:28 | huk | why weren't you in tourney? |
| 22:30:42 | captain_proton | i was busy |
| 22:30:52 | huk | with |
| 22:31:01 | huk | dont hide it |
| 22:31:21 | captain_proton | personal matters |
| 22:31:33 | huk | more detail please |
| 22:31:44 | huk | were all friends here |
| 22:31:44 | captain_proton | no |
| 22:31:49 | huk | why |
| 22:32:12 | captain_proton | its personal |
| 22:32:20 | huk | thats no reason |
| 22:32:22 | huk | how old are you |
| 22:32:47 | captain_proton | 18 |
| 22:33:11 | huk | liar |
| 22:33:24 | captain_proton | ?? |
| 22:33:26 | huk | why does gerbil's page suck |
| 22:33:32 | huk | where is real one |
| 22:33:49 | captain_proton | i have no idea - he seems to have nuked it |
| 22:34:12 | captain_proton | i will email him about it if you want |
| 22:34:45 | huk | nevermind |
| 22:34:50 | captain_proton | time to reboot |
| 22:35:01 | huk | someone else talk |
