| 06:36:44 | | bugger all, i dunno, captain_proton |
| 06:36:44 | captain_proton | ibot, why can't i connect to efnet or dalnet or ircnet? |
| 07:11:25 | | ibot's name is Billy |
| 07:11:25 | captain_proton | ibot, what is your name? |
| 07:12:59 | | 'X' is 14% lame, captain_proton |
| 07:12:59 | captain_proton | ibot, nickometer X |
| 07:13:10 | | '^zilla^' is 26% lame, captain_proton |
| 07:13:10 | captain_proton | ibot, nickometer ^zilla^ |
| 07:13:22 | | '`zilla`' is 26% lame, captain_proton |
| 07:13:22 | captain_proton | ibot, nickometer `zilla` |
| 18:44:34 | bzfrank | hi |
| 18:44:51 | captain_proton | yo. wazzup dood? |
| 18:44:55 | captain_proton | :) |
| 18:45:15 | bzfrank | wazzupppp! ;) |
| 18:45:42 | bzfrank | scary movie must have been some impact |
| 18:46:00 | captain_proton | cleaning crap from the keyboard |
| 18:46:31 | bzfrank | first time I found this chanel with someone on |
| 18:46:45 | bzfrank | irc isn't that popular in the bzflag world |
| 18:46:58 | captain_proton | heh |
| 18:47:02 | bzfrank | maybe because bzflag is a chat program in its own right |
| 18:47:45 | bzfrank | so how are things going? |
| 18:47:51 | captain_proton | perhaps |
| 18:48:15 | captain_proton | good, you? |
| 18:48:26 | bzfrank | next week I can work completely on p2501 *smile* |
| 18:48:35 | captain_proton | fun |
| 18:49:03 | bzfrank | better than debugging windows device drivers that i did in the last three weeks I can tell you |
| 18:49:04 | captain_proton | i think you should open up cvs |
| 18:49:26 | bzfrank | why? |
| 18:49:35 | bzfrank | it is way to early |
| 18:49:54 | captain_proton | so developers can take a peek |
| 18:50:17 | bzfrank | no way until 1.0 is released ;) |
| 18:50:54 | bzfrank | there is a time to design and a time to release |
| 18:50:54 | captain_proton | but developers know cvs with no release isn't going to be really functional |
| 18:51:30 | captain_proton | and if you open cvs, you might get some help |
| 18:51:58 | bzfrank | why do you like to see an unfinshed p2501? when I release now people come running telling 'well it isn't so great, see it can't do blah and bleh..' |
| 18:52:28 | bzfrank | also the anti cheater stuff ins't rolled in and p2501 eon't be the same desaster as bzflag is now in this respect |
| 18:52:41 | captain_proton | if you open cvs, only developers will see it |
| 18:52:54 | bzfrank | no, it leak out as fast as you can say 'abc' |
| 18:53:18 | captain_proton | hmmm |
| 18:53:26 | bzfrank | been there seen that |
| 18:54:30 | bzfrank | see, parts of p2501 are not public, the authentification is closed source - so people can compile it, but only a closed group of developer can create 'blessed' clients and server |
| 18:55:20 | bzfrank | they are free to create their own servers and clients but these won't autheticate to a blessed server so a server op has control about patched up clients |
| 18:55:45 | bzfrank | this scheme is not bulletproof but will stop most script kiddies |
| 18:56:27 | bzfrank | I really HATE what happens with bzflag right now, when I cannot play a day without running into some idiot with a patched up client |
| 18:57:59 | bzfrank | and that is the main reason for us not to release |
| 18:58:10 | bzfrank | at least in an unfinshed state |
| 18:59:59 | bzfrank | so what is the bzflag editor doing? |
| 19:01:02 | captain_proton | not much |
| 19:02:09 | captain_proton | + |
| 19:03:37 | bzfrank | no time? |
| 19:04:40 | captain_proton | no motivation |
| 19:05:15 | bzfrank | i know the feeling ;) |
| 19:09:37 | captain_proton | sorry, i'm reassembling my keyboard |
| 19:09:42 | bzfrank | np |
| 19:09:48 | bzfrank | dirty? |
| 19:10:03 | captain_proton | it was |
| 19:10:29 | bzfrank | alcohol helps a lot (and not eating sandwiches on it ;)) |
| 19:10:48 | captain_proton | haha...i seem to have memorized the qwerty layout |
| 19:11:00 | captain_proton | i just wanted to blow out all the dust and crap from under the keys |
| 19:11:01 | captain_proton | which i did |
| 19:11:44 | bzfrank | cat are also a problem, ask Ome Herta about hairs on his keyboard ;) |
| 19:13:13 | bzfrank | what do you think: is a plain surface for the battlefield better or use some elevation (surface mesh)? |
| 19:15:20 | captain_proton | welll |
| 19:15:23 | captain_proton | how about both |
| 19:15:54 | bzfrank | well ;) |
| 19:16:24 | captain_proton | depending on the server |
| 19:16:47 | bzfrank | no, the server uses exactly the same code |
| 19:16:59 | bzfrank | client and server do not differ in p2501 |
| 19:17:07 | bzfrank | except for the renderer |
| 19:17:45 | captain_proton | what i mean is if the server is running a world with hills & stuff, do it on the client |
| 19:17:58 | bzfrank | sync is guaranteed ;) |
| 19:18:04 | captain_proton | have the default be a 2-tri mesh |
| 19:18:17 | captain_proton | so surface mesh i guess |
| 19:19:05 | bzfrank | mhmm, barrel elevation could be a problem when running up hills |
| 19:19:14 | captain_proton | ooh - render the terrain w/ ROAM |
| 19:19:19 | bzfrank | roam? |
| 19:19:22 | captain_proton | why would it be a problem? |
| 19:19:40 | captain_proton | is a really good terrain LOD algorithm |
| 19:19:41 | bzfrank | because the tank currently keeps stabilized in horizonal |
| 19:19:52 | captain_proton | ewww |
| 19:19:56 | captain_proton | you need to fix that |
| 19:20:07 | bzfrank | just like in bzflag |
| 19:20:18 | captain_proton | heey - you should implement your collision algorithms in bz, just for fun |
| 19:20:44 | bzfrank | bzflag is too messy code, too many classes to class driven ;) |
| 19:20:53 | bzfrank | to = too |
| 19:21:21 | captain_proton | so you're just lazy? |
| 19:21:28 | bzfrank | no, realistic |
| 19:21:36 | captain_proton | hmmm |
| 19:21:54 | captain_proton | is eating a ham sandwich |
| 19:22:14 | bzfrank | don't put dirt on your keyboard again *eg* |
| 19:22:32 | captain_proton | i don't suppose *I* could take a look at p2501...i promise no one else will see it |
| 19:22:54 | bzfrank | maybe in a month or so, ok? |
| 19:23:00 | captain_proton | okees |
| 19:23:20 | captain_proton | hmm i just found some hardware i think i need to buy |
| 19:23:34 | bzfrank | I really like to have rolled the network in before giving anything out |
| 19:23:39 | bzfrank | what stuff? |
| 19:23:44 | captain_proton | http://www.allblackbelt.com/images/taichinbroadswords.jpg, #2103 (not J) |
| 19:24:31 | captain_proton | hmmm i need to wait at least 2 months |
| 19:24:51 | captain_proton | (they don't sell them if you're < 18 years old) |
| 19:25:18 | bzfrank | are these sharpened |
| 19:25:23 | captain_proton | yep |
| 19:25:29 | captain_proton | its no fun if they're not |
| 19:25:40 | captain_proton | this particular style i think only the upper 1/3rd is sharp |
| 19:25:44 | bzfrank | oh nice, you won'T get them in germany not even if you are over 18 ;) |
| 19:25:58 | captain_proton | i'm not in germany |
| 19:26:06 | captain_proton | i already have one sword |
| 19:26:07 | bzfrank | so feel lucky |
| 19:26:28 | bzfrank | me too, but only to decorate my wall |
| 19:26:32 | captain_proton | gotten as a gift when i got my first degree black belt |
| 19:26:39 | captain_proton | yours sharp? |
| 19:26:44 | bzfrank | nope |
| 19:26:54 | captain_proton | ahh |
| 19:27:29 | captain_proton | if i start learning tai chi, maybe in 4 or 10 years i can learn how to use those straight swords |
| 19:27:55 | captain_proton | its known as the "king of short swords" :) |
| 19:28:03 | bzfrank | do they need a different fighting style? |
| 19:28:19 | captain_proton | did you ever see the movie "crouching tiger, hidden dragon"? |
| 19:28:23 | bzfrank | I personally perfer to obliterate any intruder with a BFG9000 ;) |
| 19:28:37 | bzfrank | yep I saw the moviw, was nice |
| 19:28:45 | captain_proton | thats the style for these |
| 19:28:52 | captain_proton | the swords really are that flexible |
| 19:29:07 | bzfrank | well, I don't believe they can fly even with Tai Chi *eg* |
| 19:29:09 | captain_proton | the idea is to transfer your 'chi' into the sword at the moment of impact to harden it |
| 19:29:15 | captain_proton | no flying |
| 19:29:20 | captain_proton | but the swordplay was that style |
| 19:29:33 | bzfrank | sounds ok |
| 19:29:39 | captain_proton | Wudan(g) was the predecessor of tai chi |
| 19:29:41 | bzfrank | but i guess it is hard to do |
| 19:29:48 | captain_proton | yes |
| 19:30:15 | captain_proton | (if you can't tell, i'm a martial arts enthusiast) |
| 19:30:27 | bzfrank | I *guessed* so ;) ;) |
| 19:30:33 | captain_proton | heh |
| 19:30:54 | bzfrank | I more prefer the might art of jogging where you transfer your Chi in the legs |
| 19:31:11 | captain_proton | :) |
| 19:31:15 | bzfrank | I can run faster than anyone coming with a sword at me ;) |
| 19:31:16 | captain_proton | ever played "MindRover"? |
| 19:31:26 | bzfrank | that tank game? |
| 19:31:31 | captain_proton | no |
| 19:31:48 | bzfrank | nope |
| 19:31:53 | captain_proton | its supposedly the best build-an-autonomous-robot-and-have-it-compete-with-other-robots game |
| 19:32:06 | bzfrank | I saw its web page |
| 19:32:16 | bzfrank | one reason i started p2501 |
| 19:32:28 | bzfrank | because robots are so freaking hard to do right in bzflag |
| 19:32:48 | captain_proton | ;) |
| 19:32:57 | bzfrank | in the 80ies I created my battle robots in tank battle for the old Apple2 |
| 19:33:16 | bzfrank | but that was 2d stuff programmed with a mixup basic langauge |
| 19:33:33 | captain_proton | the programming style is really weird |
| 19:33:42 | bzfrank | visual stuff I believe |
| 19:33:49 | captain_proton | yes |
| 19:34:07 | bzfrank | I more prefer the coding way of doing things |
| 19:34:59 | captain_pistachio | me too, but its interesting |
| 19:35:22 | bzfrank | sure, what does the software cost btw? |
| 19:35:39 | captain_pistachio | well, windows i think is $25, loki port is $30 |
| 19:35:42 | captain_pistachio | i only have the demo |
| 19:36:47 | bzfrank | mhmm, sounds reasonable |
| 19:37:01 | captain_pistachio | yes |
| 19:37:13 | captain_pistachio | i might get it if i have any time once i start school |
| 19:37:46 | bzfrank | so hardpressed in school? |
| 19:38:02 | captain_pistachio | i don't know how it will be |
| 19:38:07 | captain_pistachio | never been to college before |
| 19:38:09 | bzfrank | what school? |
| 19:38:20 | captain_pistachio | university of colorado |
| 19:38:41 | bzfrank | ah, studying what? |
| 19:38:55 | captain_pistachio | music & cs (double major) |
| 19:39:15 | bzfrank | that seens to be quite some work... |
| 19:39:21 | captain_pistachio | yes |
| 19:39:26 | captain_pistachio | 5 years |
| 19:39:42 | captain_pistachio | and that includes the 30 hours or so of credit i already have because of AP exams |
| 19:40:30 | bzfrank | when I look back at my university days it was mostly fun and loose days |
| 19:41:04 | captain_pistachio | i'm guessing it won't be too much, but i'd prefer to overestimate it |
| 19:41:07 | bzfrank | but then I only did one major (two are not common in Germany) |
| 19:41:24 | captain_pistachio | two are not common here either |
| 19:41:37 | bzfrank | and today nobady asked about it anyway ;) |
| 19:41:51 | bzfrank | ah, these typos... |
| 19:42:21 | bzfrank | then why do you impose this onto you? getting better market 'value'? |
| 19:42:21 | captain_pistachio | what typos? |
| 19:42:28 | bzfrank | nobady ;) |
| 19:42:34 | captain_pistachio | no... |
| 19:42:40 | captain_pistachio | i was going to do CS anyway |
| 19:42:49 | captain_pistachio | and i like doing music |
| 19:43:44 | | ibot's name is Billy |
| 19:43:44 | captain_pistachio | ibot, what is your name? |
| 19:44:25 | bzfrank | Well it is your choice, I was always the lazy student just doing enought to keep things going and have a nice time - nowadays I am my own boss and I would go this way again if I even could ;*) |
| 19:45:00 | captain_pistachio | well, if it turns out i don't like doing the music, i will stop |
| 19:46:39 | bzfrank | If I had a son I would tell him to enjoy life as much as he could as long as he is young. it is too short to be wasted |
| 19:47:03 | bzfrank | but that is of course your own choice, maybe my age is breaking through ;) |
| 19:47:14 | captain_pistachio | i'm not wasting my life |
| 19:47:26 | bzfrank | I did not say so |
| 19:49:15 | bzfrank | I did major in kybernetics BTW about 10 years ago |
| 19:49:35 | captain_pistachio | kybernetics? whats that? |
| 19:49:58 | bzfrank | robots, process automatization, that kind of stuff |
| 19:50:10 | captain_pistachio | cybernetics i think you mean |
| 19:50:20 | bzfrank | building production lines, we write it with K ;) |
| 19:50:33 | captain_pistachio | hmm |
| 19:51:17 | captain_pistachio | you want to build me an aoutonomous robot that runs on linux over a wireless lan? |
| 19:51:20 | captain_pistachio | i wanted to do it myself |
| 19:51:25 | captain_pistachio | but i don't really know how |
| 19:51:34 | captain_pistachio | :) |
| 19:52:18 | bzfrank | should the robot control itself or is the logic in some mainframe and only the system is controled over the wlan? |
| 19:52:29 | bzfrank | mainframe == pc (these days) |
| 19:52:49 | captain_pistachio | well...i was thinking the logic would be elsewhere |
| 19:52:52 | captain_pistachio | probably on my main box |
| 19:53:07 | captain_pistachio | so i could tweak the code locally |
| 19:53:35 | captain_pistachio | checks to see how opencyc development is going |
| 19:53:47 | bzfrank | you can't guarantee respons time over a CSMA/CD lan, better to put some logic in the remote device |
| 19:54:09 | captain_pistachio | i was thinking 802.11b... |
| 19:54:11 | bzfrank | cyc is a semantic device, it does not control robots |
| 19:54:18 | captain_pistachio | i know |
| 19:54:22 | captain_pistachio | (another interest) |
| 19:54:40 | bzfrank | best to keep it simple, like an insect |
| 19:55:33 | captain_pistachio | well i was initially dreaming of being able to send audio/video to the controller box |
| 19:55:37 | captain_pistachio | add vision/hearing |
| 19:55:39 | bzfrank | 4 or 6 wheels, electro powered, bumper contacts and logic to react upon them in the robot itself |
| 19:55:55 | bzfrank | no problem building a web cam in this |
| 19:56:01 | captain_pistachio | no legs? ;) |
| 19:56:29 | bzfrank | legs are difficult to control, if you only want to run it on a plain surface use wheels ;) |
| 19:57:02 | captain_pistachio | this is all hypothetical though...i lack money to build such a thing |
| 19:57:13 | bzfrank | we used cams to measure the envirnment in the early 90ies to find the way, etc... |
| 19:57:18 | captain_pistachio | who said anything about plain surfaces? |
| 19:57:42 | bzfrank | first learn to crawl, then you can start walking ;) |
| 19:58:02 | captain_pistachio | i was thinking 2 cams to add depth perception of objects |
| 19:58:14 | bzfrank | not easy to do I can tell you |
| 19:58:27 | captain_pistachio | i know |
| 19:59:30 | bzfrank | I remember one day when our measure system failed and reported a hieght of 0 units for each element and our robot arm smashed down the poor postal packages ;) |
| 20:00:15 | captain_pistachio | whoops |
| 20:00:37 | bzfrank | or another incident when our car tanking robot (build to find the opening of the tank, remove it and fill up the car) failed and puched a hole in car where it thought must be the tank ;) that was fun *lol* |
| 20:01:15 | captain_pistachio | wow...you build strong robots |
| 20:01:58 | captain_pistachio | oh - you could build me a copy of MIT's walker robot |
| 20:02:08 | bzfrank | we used the Kuka soldering robots are spares, they could mash a human head easily if you run them at full force, that why we never got near them while on trial |
| 20:02:16 | bzfrank | are == as |
| 20:02:47 | bzfrank | one curious visitor did one day and we had to call the ambulance |
| 20:02:59 | bzfrank | it kocked him out right away |
| 20:03:03 | captain_pistachio | yikes |
| 20:03:22 | bzfrank | well, 5 kWatt motors have impact ;) |
| 20:03:24 | captain_pistachio | boo...openprojects.net is going down |
| 20:03:40 | bzfrank | well, cya later |
| 20:03:41 | captain_pistachio | what irc client do you use? |
| 20:03:55 | bzfrank | plain irc on FreeBSD |
| 20:03:57 | captain_pistachio | not going down now |
| 20:03:59 | captain_pistachio | sometime later |
| 20:04:54 | bzfrank | but that was long ago and far away (at least 100 km from here ;)) |
| 20:05:16 | bzfrank | yes, the MIT walker is nice |
| 20:05:47 | captain_pistachio | hmmm...SDL has been ported to PS2 |
| 20:05:59 | bzfrank | yep, so P2501 will run right on it - nice ;) |
| 20:06:27 | captain_pistachio | p2501 is sdl? |
| 20:06:37 | bzfrank | yes, sdl and sdl_net |
| 20:06:47 | bzfrank | why reinvent the wheel |
| 20:07:20 | captain_pistachio | how is sdl_net? i've looked only a tiny bit at it |
| 20:07:30 | bzfrank | ok for a low level libaray |
| 20:07:34 | bzfrank | library |
| 20:07:58 | bzfrank | it wraps up the socket details, but does nothing else |
| 20:08:17 | captain_pistachio | hmm |
| 20:08:40 | bzfrank | libnetcore (the stuff phil just codes) lives on SDL_net and below the application layer and provides transparent messaging |
| 20:08:52 | captain_pistachio | i had to write my own *ix/windows/mac socket library... |
| 20:09:00 | bzfrank | why? |
| 20:09:43 | captain_pistachio | because (for work) i had to have both IP and a proprietary protocol supported |
| 20:09:48 | captain_pistachio | TCP, not IP |
| 20:09:59 | bzfrank | IPX? |
| 20:10:08 | captain_pistachio | TCP/IP and RELIA/IP |
| 20:10:33 | bzfrank | ah |
| 20:10:50 | bzfrank | reliable transaction stuff? |
| 20:11:02 | captain_pistachio | sortof |
| 20:11:10 | captain_pistachio | its UDP with redundancies |
| 20:11:23 | bzfrank | sounds ok to me |
| 20:11:27 | captain_pistachio | solves a lot of the problems with TCP |
| 20:11:47 | bzfrank | public stuff or closed? |
| 20:12:01 | captain_pistachio | patented |
| 20:12:12 | bzfrank | so it is public |
| 20:12:22 | captain_pistachio | yes |
| 20:12:27 | captain_pistachio | but not free to use |
| 20:12:37 | bzfrank | can not find it with google do you have link? |
| 20:12:53 | bzfrank | ah, http://www.gigabytex.com/whtrel.htm |
| 20:12:54 | captain_pistachio | let me check |
| 20:13:13 | captain_pistachio | looks right |
| 20:13:48 | bzfrank | I *hate* software patents |
| 20:14:10 | bzfrank | this stuff was done before in the 80ies as far as I know |
| 20:14:39 | captain_pistachio | when do you think the patent is from? |
| 20:14:58 | bzfrank | patent pending still in 2000? not very likely |
| 20:15:13 | bzfrank | (thats what the web page says) |
| 20:15:16 | captain_pistachio | i think this page was created from a old document |
| 20:16:15 | captain_pistachio | well i do know that my boss invented it...he's been in this business forever |
| 20:16:20 | captain_pistachio | initially, it was with hardware |
| 20:17:07 | bzfrank | even Lucas arts used a similar technique back in 1995 for their X-Wing protocol ;) |
| 20:17:36 | bzfrank | (sending redudant packets to reduce loss and retransmit) |
| 20:18:15 | captain_pistachio | there are other parts to the protocol |
| 20:18:19 | bzfrank | but anyway, maybe the specifics for the RED codes are patented, so be it |
| 20:18:22 | captain_pistachio | not just redundancy |
| 20:19:04 | bzfrank | also an US patent has no jurisdiction whatever in Europe ;) |
| 20:19:18 | captain_pistachio | but international patents do |
| 20:20:02 | bzfrank | not that I like to reinvent this scheme, but I am a strong opponent to this intellectual property issues like patented software |
| 20:20:16 | bzfrank | you cannot patent software in europe (Yet) |
| 20:20:25 | bzfrank | or schemes that ues software |
| 20:20:52 | bzfrank | or buisness methodes ,or similar |
| 20:21:55 | bzfrank | but in the US you can even patent FILE FORMATS! So this is a fast way to close of your program from the competition |
| 20:22:19 | captain_pistachio | i'm opposed to companies using them to crush competition |
| 20:23:19 | bzfrank | but how can you prevent this from happening? you canont force a patent holder on his conditions to license the technique, therefore this is an effective methode to control a market |
| 20:23:51 | captain_pistachio | its a question of morality |
| 20:23:58 | bzfrank | no, of money and only money |
| 20:24:43 | bzfrank | moral has nothing to do with it, therefore patent on trivial or know techniques and formats should not be allowed in the first place |
| 20:25:13 | bzfrank | in the there exists even a patent on XOR - imaging that! |
| 20:25:26 | bzfrank | in the US... |
| 20:25:28 | captain_pistachio | is bored |
| 20:25:37 | captain_pistachio | hmm |
| 20:25:47 | captain_pistachio | that ought to be challenged |
| 20:26:15 | bzfrank | sure, but the patent office does allow it in the first place! *Eg* |
| 20:26:29 | captain_pistachio | they shouldn't have |
| 20:26:45 | bzfrank | because there is no effective way prior art is checked and that is the real scandal. |
| 20:26:55 | bzfrank | but anyway I get carried away |
| 20:27:18 | captain_pistachio | tes you do |
| 20:27:23 | captain_pistachio | tes->yes |
| 20:27:41 | bzfrank | you will understand as soon as you create your own software |
| 20:28:35 | bzfrank | see, I am unable to read TrueType fonts in my own PS interpreter I wrote because the hinting scheme in patented by Apple (See eg. freetype.org for details) |
| 20:29:06 | captain_pistachio | i know the problems with truetype |
| 20:31:13 | captain_pistachio | goes to play some mindrover |
| 20:31:18 | bzfrank | cya |
| 20:32:29 | bzfrank | later |
