| 00:26.16 | *** part/#brlcad mpictor (~mark@99-93-104-202.lightspeed.iplsin.sbcglobal.net) |
| 00:34.11 | ``Erik | icv uses a 24b rgb internal format, identical to the pix data. it should probably be altered to cope with high dynamic range input, stuff that exr could use... |
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| 12:19.39 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:bob1961 * 55308 (brlcad/trunk/include/ged.h brlcad/trunk/src/libged/CMakeLists.txt and 7 others): This includes the addtion of the pset command as well as other mods related to supporting metaball editing in Archer. |
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| 12:40.01 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:5.135.165.126 * 5244 /wiki/Tutorial/Blender_to_CAD: |
| 14:04.23 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:d_rossberg * 55309 (brlcad/trunk/include/analyze.h brlcad/trunk/src/conv/g-voxel.c and 2 others): refactoring of the voxelize functions- fixed memory leaks- filter air voxels- catched a file error |
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| 17:48.22 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 0 /wiki/User:Rajkoushik/GSOC2013/proposal: content was: "=GSOC 2013 Proposal=" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/Rajkoushik|Rajkoushik]]") |
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| 18:17.31 | brlcad | okay, first pass through the proposals is complete |
| 18:17.53 | brlcad | weeded out the junk, looks like there's going to be some good competition |
| 18:18.22 | ``Erik | weeds out the weeding out from his mailbox O.o |
| 18:18.50 | brlcad | ah, I wasn't getting anything .. guess it e-mails "everyone elese" |
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| 18:25.53 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD:bob1961 * 55310 (brlcad/trunk/src/tclscripts/archer/GeometryEditFrame.tcl brlcad/trunk/src/tclscripts/archer/MetaballEditFrame.tcl): The following statements indicate mods to the metaball edit panel. Added components for entering method and threshold. Also added components for activating and setting the selected point size. Finished wiring the table. |
| 18:27.31 | kesha | cstirk: I am working on issue #47 https://github.com/stepcode/stepcode/issues/47 and if I remove the ones in fedex_plus and run make it gives me error. For example, I removed comlexlist.cc file from fedex_plus as same copy existed in clstepcore. |
| 18:27.40 | kesha | now I get this error- |
| 18:27.47 | kesha | make[2]: *** No rule to make target `../src/fedex_plus/complexlist.cc', needed by `src/fedex_plus/CMakeFiles/fedex_plus.dir/complexlist.cc.o'. Stop. |
| 18:28.26 | kesha | cstirk: This happens for almost all the files that needs to be removed from fedex_plus. |
| 18:31.31 | kesha | cstirk: should I remove it from CMakeLists.txt also ? |
| 18:35.05 | brlcad | kesha: you have to remove it from the cmakelists.txt file also, as that is the build system file that describes what to build |
| 18:40.29 | kesha | then I am getting error like- |
| 18:40.35 | kesha | CMake Error: Error in cmake code at |
| 18:40.37 | kesha | /home/kesha/stepcode/src/fedex_plus/CMakeLists.txt:1: |
| 18:40.38 | kesha | Parse error. Expected a command name, got unquoted argument with text "set". |
| 18:41.01 | brlcad | that looks like a syntax error, you made a mistake somewhere |
| 18:41.10 | kesha | brlcad: Is there a pastebin where I can paste my output instead of copying it here? |
| 18:41.37 | brlcad | any pastebin EXCEPT pastebin.com will work just fine |
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| 18:43.29 | kesha | brlcad: okay. I will try to debug my mistake. |
| 19:00.45 | kesha | brlcad: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2379884 . I get this when I deleted print.cc and updated CMakeLists.txt and run make. Any idea ? |
| 19:02.19 | brlcad | kesha: what does that message tell you? |
| 19:04.19 | kesha | In cmake/SC_Utils.cmake , 62 line is add_executable(${execname} ${srcslist}) |
| 19:04.46 | brlcad | no |
| 19:05.15 | brlcad | that is what it output |
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| 19:06.35 | brlcad | what does the whole output mean to you? |
| 19:07.04 | brlcad | if you don't understand what it means, you MUST start there and understand what it is saying |
| 19:07.29 | brlcad | of course, it's not a great output |
| 19:07.29 | kesha | that the source file ../fedex_plus/print.cc is missing. |
| 19:07.42 | kesha | But that is what I removed intenstionally.. |
| 19:08.06 | brlcad | that's good |
| 19:08.12 | brlcad | so why might that happen? |
| 19:08.19 | kesha | I am not getting as to where its getting instruction to look up for that file. |
| 19:08.38 | brlcad | and THAT is what is more important to realize |
| 19:08.46 | brlcad | it's obviously got the instruction to build that file |
| 19:08.49 | brlcad | and you think you've removed it |
| 19:09.17 | brlcad | so either you didn't, or it's not aware you did, or you did and there are still other places it's referenced |
| 19:09.41 | kesha | over and above CMakeLists.txt I think its getting instruction from somewhere from cmake folder |
| 19:09.43 | brlcad | so go down that list |
| 19:10.06 | brlcad | you say you edited CMakeLists.txt |
| 19:10.09 | brlcad | confirm that you did |
| 19:10.38 | brlcad | which file did you change? |
| 19:11.25 | kesha | yes I did change |
| 19:11.35 | brlcad | how did you confirm? |
| 19:11.47 | kesha | Its in file /stepcode/src/fedex_plus/Cmakelists.txt |
| 19:12.10 | kesha | I opened it and saw again ! |
| 19:12.30 | brlcad | so you just used your eyes to visually inspect? |
| 19:13.34 | kesha | yea..any other way to confirm ? |
| 19:13.48 | brlcad | eyes can lie, even unintentionally -- if I asked you to prove that you did, how might you prove it? |
| 19:14.57 | brlcad | whistles the jeopardy theme |
| 19:16.49 | kesha | http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2379915 This is what my CMakeLists looks with no print.cc in |
| 19:16.50 | kesha | set(fedex_plus_SOURCES |
| 19:16.52 | kesha | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:17.38 | brlcad | kesha: heh, so getting a third-party (me) to confirm is one way to "prove it", albeit still not without potential for error (my eyes) |
| 19:17.46 | brlcad | what's an UNBIASED way to check? |
| 19:18.51 | kesha | maybe the system itself checks ?! |
| 19:19.01 | brlcad | kesha: this is a problem with the process you're using to debug the problem, that is what I'm trying to fix -- not the actual error (which is really quite simple) |
| 19:19.16 | brlcad | no, there's a way YOU can check it unbiased |
| 19:19.41 | brlcad | have you ever used 'grep'? |
| 19:20.15 | kesha | very seldom. |
| 19:20.22 | brlcad | but you have |
| 19:20.26 | brlcad | so you know what it does |
| 19:20.35 | brlcad | that's pretty unbiased |
| 19:20.47 | brlcad | if grep can't find print.cc in the file, it's pretty likely that it's not in the file |
| 19:21.00 | kesha | searches out everywhere the argument that is passed after grep. |
| 19:21.05 | brlcad | "grep print.cc CMakeLists.txt" should return empty |
| 19:21.49 | brlcad | if you don't know grep, you should learn it -- it's a fundamental tool |
| 19:22.35 | kesha | its giving me empty. I ran that grep command in the fedex_plus directory. |
| 19:22.46 | brlcad | good |
| 19:23.05 | brlcad | so when I wrote "so either you didn't, or it's not aware you did, or you did and there are still other places it's referenced" .. that takes care of the FIRST one |
| 19:23.21 | brlcad | the build system might not be aware that you made the edit |
| 19:23.40 | brlcad | in that case, you'd need to delete your cmake cache files and re-run cmake, but lets assume that's not a problem for the moment |
| 19:23.55 | brlcad | that leaves you with "you did and there are still other places it's referenced" |
| 19:24.14 | brlcad | which you implied with "I think its getting instruction from somewhere from cmake folder" |
| 19:24.21 | kesha | coming to third case which I thought initiall would be problem. |
| 19:24.32 | kesha | yes |
| 19:24.35 | brlcad | but you don't need to "think" that -- you have an output message, what does it say? |
| 19:25.38 | brlcad | this is also where your eyes can deceive you, but you'll just have to read the message from start to finish |
| 19:26.32 | kesha | wait a minute |
| 19:26.45 | brlcad | i don't like waiting |
| 19:27.42 | kesha | its getting CMake Error at cmake/SC_Utils.cmake:62 (add_executable) |
| 19:27.51 | brlcad | right |
| 19:28.08 | brlcad | that's saying it was running an add_executable() macro .. and encountered an error |
| 19:28.19 | kesha | that has got something to do with In cmake/SC_Utils.cmake , 62 line - add_executable(${execname} ${srcslist}) |
| 19:28.40 | brlcad | that's where that macro is called |
| 19:28.54 | brlcad | has everything to do with it, but you need to keep reading the error |
| 19:29.41 | kesha | and maybe called from SC_ADDEXEC(fedex_plus "${fedex_plus_SOURCES}" "libexppp;express;base") i,e 34th line in cmakelist.txt |
| 19:29.42 | kesha | ?? |
| 19:29.51 | brlcad | gah, stop |
| 19:29.54 | brlcad | read the error |
| 19:30.18 | brlcad | what's that line? |
| 19:30.42 | brlcad | (in the error, not the cmakelists.txt file) |
| 19:31.43 | kesha | anything to do with its trying different extensions ? |
| 19:31.48 | brlcad | lines 6 and 7 say it tried a bunch of extensions to find the file (print.cc) when it couldn't find it |
| 19:32.10 | brlcad | what do the next two lines say? |
| 19:33.33 | kesha | Calling stack with most recent call first. (LIFO). that is SC_ADDEXEC |
| 19:33.56 | brlcad | what is a calling stack? |
| 19:34.22 | kesha | calling a function on stack ? |
| 19:34.26 | brlcad | nope |
| 19:35.17 | kesha | calling a macro from stack ? |
| 19:35.26 | brlcad | no |
| 19:35.46 | brlcad | so there's part of the problem, you don't know what that label means so it's hard to process the information that follows |
| 19:35.49 | brlcad | ask :) |
| 19:35.58 | brlcad | a call stack |
| 19:36.00 | kesha | what does that mean ? |
| 19:36.08 | brlcad | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_stack |
| 19:36.24 | brlcad | a call stack is what happens when you have one function or macro call another that calls another that calls another |
| 19:36.30 | brlcad | it's the list of things called |
| 19:36.45 | ``Erik | ponders making some popcorn |
| 19:36.47 | brlcad | with a C program, for example, you start with main() which might call some other function |
| 19:36.52 | brlcad | which might call another |
| 19:37.09 | brlcad | "main() -> log_message() -> printf()" for example |
| 19:37.12 | brlcad | that's a call stack |
| 19:38.13 | brlcad | so that line says it was running the function/macro in parenthesis and that is where the add_executable() call was made |
| 19:38.48 | brlcad | which function/macro called add_executable()? |
| 19:41.36 | kesha | in cmake/scutils ? |
| 19:41.58 | brlcad | nope |
| 19:42.07 | brlcad | you don't need to read a single file right now |
| 19:42.11 | brlcad | just look at the error message |
| 19:42.23 | brlcad | the first line says it was running add_executable() |
| 19:42.39 | brlcad | and it ran into a problem (file not found) |
| 19:42.49 | brlcad | then it tells you the call stack (what called what) |
| 19:42.56 | brlcad | what called add_executable()? |
| 19:43.20 | kesha | Cmakelist.txt called |
| 19:43.42 | kesha | while executin SC_ADDEXEC |
| 19:43.48 | kesha | *executing |
| 19:44.15 | brlcad | so the answer to my question then is what exactly? :) |
| 19:44.44 | brlcad | which function()? |
| 19:45.10 | kesha | SC_ADDEXEC() fuction |
| 19:45.16 | brlcad | good |
| 19:45.24 | brlcad | and in what file was that call made? |
| 19:45.49 | kesha | Cmakelist.txt file |
| 19:45.57 | brlcad | the is a file name |
| 19:46.30 | kesha | fedex_plus |
| 19:46.32 | brlcad | what is the full path? |
| 19:46.54 | brlcad | be precise |
| 19:47.24 | kesha | in file /src/fedex_plus/Cmakelist.txt |
| 19:47.44 | brlcad | how did you come up with that filepath? |
| 19:48.11 | kesha | again my visual senses ! |
| 19:48.38 | brlcad | well it's not only imprecise (there is no file named "Cmakelist.txt") |
| 19:48.40 | brlcad | it's also wrong |
| 19:49.31 | kesha | in file /src/fedex_plus/CMakeLists.txt |
| 19:49.32 | brlcad | SC_ADDEXEC() was called from what file? |
| 19:49.46 | brlcad | try copy-paste |
| 19:50.09 | brlcad | what line was it on? |
| 19:50.42 | kesha | line 34 |
| 19:50.47 | brlcad | of what file? |
| 19:50.54 | brlcad | file path |
| 19:51.26 | kesha | someone is trying to pull my legs ! |
| 19:51.34 | brlcad | not at all |
| 19:51.46 | brlcad | copy-paste the answer |
| 19:52.19 | kesha | line 34 of file stepcode/src/fedex_plus/CMakeLists.txt |
| 19:52.24 | brlcad | no |
| 19:52.47 | brlcad | that is also not a copy-paste |
| 19:53.22 | kesha | line 34 of file CMakeLists.txt in stepcode/src/fedex_plus/ |
| 19:53.28 | kesha | is this fine ? |
| 19:53.29 | brlcad | put this ( http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2379884 ) into a file |
| 19:53.31 | brlcad | nope |
| 19:53.50 | brlcad | curl -O http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2379884 |
| 19:54.02 | brlcad | grep 34 2379884 |
| 19:54.14 | brlcad | what is the result? |
| 19:54.24 | kesha | src/fedex_python/CMakeLists.txt:34 |
| 19:54.26 | kesha | <PROTECTED> |
| 19:54.53 | brlcad | how is that different from what you keep typing? |
| 19:55.13 | brlcad | (and yes, that is right finally) :) |
| 19:55.15 | kesha | I was mentioning stepcode package also |
| 19:55.23 | brlcad | no, something else |
| 19:55.47 | brlcad | in what directory is the CMakeLists.txt file? |
| 19:55.48 | kesha | the format path:line ? |
| 19:56.32 | brlcad | what is different between what you said earlier and what you just said now: |
| 19:56.33 | brlcad | 15:49 < kesha> in file /src/fedex_plus/CMakeLists.txt |
| 19:56.39 | brlcad | 15:54 < kesha> src/fedex_python/CMakeLists.txt:34 |
| 19:56.50 | kesha | fedex_python !! |
| 19:57.01 | brlcad | ding ding ding |
| 19:57.42 | brlcad | "your eyes can deceive you" |
| 19:58.11 | brlcad | grep print.cc src/fedex_python/* |
| 19:58.26 | kesha | http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2379884 output doean't match with http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2380087 |
| 19:58.32 | kesha | *doesn't |
| 19:59.48 | brlcad | sure enough it doesn't, what's your point? :) |
| 20:01.12 | kesha | I mean whats the point in checking in src/fedex_python/ ? |
| 20:01.36 | brlcad | you'll have to help me understand |
| 20:01.37 | kesha | Even the grep print.cc src/fedex_python/ doen't give any output ! |
| 20:01.46 | brlcad | you said it wasn't compiling and was giving you the error listed in 2379884 |
| 20:02.11 | brlcad | to understand and fix that error, we follow the message |
| 20:02.20 | brlcad | if you made other edits since then, you needed to communicate that |
| 20:03.21 | brlcad | if the same three conditions I listed before apply and must be checked |
| 20:04.01 | brlcad | when I look at unmodified sources, I see print.cc listed in numerous build files |
| 20:04.20 | brlcad | so if you've removed/moved that source file, you're going to need to update those numerous build files |
| 20:04.55 | brlcad | the information you have to go on besides grepping the source tree is the error messages from the build system |
| 20:05.00 | brlcad | does that make sense to you? |
| 20:06.19 | kesha | okay..wait .. I didn't get . http://pastebin.mozilla.org/2380104 . This is the error I am getting and doing grep for print.cc in src/fedex_python gives me no output |
| 20:07.09 | kesha | Leave the previous line. Forget it |
| 20:07.23 | kesha | feels dumb now |
| 20:07.37 | kesha | I got it. |
| 20:07.54 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 5245 /wiki/Tutorial/Blender_to_CAD: Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/5.135.165.126|5.135.165.126]] ([[User talk:5.135.165.126|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Toshibarve|Toshibarve]] |
| 20:08.15 | kesha | will never blindly trust my eyes henceforth ! :P |
| 20:08.17 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Sean * 0 /wiki/User:5.135.165.126: Spamming links to external sites |
| 20:09.06 | brlcad | kesha: try grepping the entire tree |
| 20:09.15 | brlcad | grep -r print.cc stepcode/* |
| 20:09.31 | kesha | brlcad: Thanks a lot for having patience . It was great that you tried answers from me and didn't write it directly. |
| 20:10.08 | kesha | brlcad: yes. okay. |
| 20:10.33 | brlcad | you can ignore any results in .svn directories, but should pay attention to and understand any others |
| 20:11.14 | kesha | brlcad: hmm |
| 20:12.34 | kesha | happy to see built 100% again |
| 20:17.11 | kesha | grep -r print.cc stepcode/* now shows only those print.cc which I wanted actually to be present. Other unwanted similar files are removed |
| 20:31.47 | Notify | 03BRL-CAD Wiki:Dineshramesh * 0 /wiki/User:Dineshramesh: |
| 20:35.00 | brlcad | excellent |
| 20:51.15 | *** join/#brlcad cstirk (~quassel@c-71-56-216-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 20:51.20 | *** join/#brlcad cstirk_ (~quassel@c-71-56-216-45.hsd1.co.comcast.net) |
| 21:36.32 | starseeker | kesha: Remember, to work on a project like this you need to understand the basics of what is going on before you will be able to do more substantial work. Believe me, I understand the temptation to try and ignore everything except the bits related to what you're trying to do at any given moment, but it's a temptation you need to fight. |
| 21:40.40 | starseeker | The ability to examine and understand existing code (build systems, C++, error messages, whatever) is essential in open source (really, when working with *any* pre-existing code base) |
| 21:41.42 | ``Erik | starseeker, aren't you up a bit late with your new start time tomorrow? ;> *duck* |
| 21:42.17 | starseeker | winces - yeah, probably |
| 21:42.39 | starseeker | do they make alarm clocks that administer Red Bull? |
| 21:42.48 | ``Erik | um, there's one that cooks bacon |
| 21:42.58 | starseeker | that might work for Ed :-) |
| 21:43.16 | ``Erik | http://bacontoday.com/waken-bacon-the-real-bacon-alarm-clock/ |
| 21:43.45 | ``Erik | arduino+iv? :D |
| 21:44.32 | starseeker | eeek |
| 21:44.56 | ``Erik | cause of death: off-by-1 error |
| 21:45.15 | starseeker | heh |
| 21:45.28 | starseeker | now *that's* high stakes programming |
| 21:46.54 | kesha | starseeker: from past 2 days I have been observing the src code in stepcode and today I felt I should start up working with some issue and will learn things as and how the problem is encountered. So according to you, what should I do to examine and understand exisiting code if not jumping upon to actual work ? |
| 21:47.20 | starseeker | kesha: however it works for you - the key point is to make sure you *do* understand what's going on |
| 21:48.23 | starseeker | you can't "jump on" actual work without understanding what you are working on - how would you know what the impact of your changes is? |
| 21:49.32 | kesha | starseeker: yeah. true that. |
| 21:49.50 | kesha | I understand your point |
| 21:50.11 | ``Erik | particularly in a large cross platform package, "poke it until it works" tends to leave it not working for other platforms... a couple of the more finicky ones are windows (it's weird) and bsd (it's strict) |
| 21:53.43 | kesha | ``Erik: Does every issue on solving on one platform needs to be checked on all other platforms too? |
| 21:54.23 | kesha | ``Erik: Or is it something like collecting some and checking them altogether at some later stage ? |
| 21:55.29 | ``Erik | kesha: once you have a lot of experience in dealing iwth the various platforms, you can often predict if it will work everywhere, but it really does need to be checked... |
| 21:55.57 | ``Erik | even those with 30+ years programming experience overlook something "basic" on occasion :) |
| 21:57.31 | ``Erik | (now with BRL-CAD, we often tend to ignore one platform (windows) for long periods of time, then try to clean up all the bugs at once... but that's a matter of not having the time/patience to test every change. My personal compile spread is fbsd32/fbsd64/linux64/mac64 for every change) |
| 22:04.46 | kesha | ``Erik: Cool. Four checks ! After I get comfortable on Linux first, then I can go further on to other platforms ;) But yea, that thing also needs to be focused . |
| 22:05.23 | starseeker | kesha: remember to pay attention to compiler warnings. If you don't understand what it's telling you, make sure you look it up! |
| 22:06.52 | kesha | starseeker: sure |
| 22:06.55 | starseeker | understanding those comes first - then you get to understand why it is complaining on BSD but not Linux |
| 22:07.45 | starseeker | kesha: it may feel like you're "off-topic", but you aren't - those basic skills are necessary not only here but in any future software development you want to pursue |
| 22:09.39 | starseeker | there is now a truly *vast* amount of legacy code doing work almost everywhere - I don't know of any commercial or open source programming job that is going to involve starting "from scratch" without attempting to re-use at least some code from elsewhere |
| 22:10.38 | kesha | starseeker: yes. I saw some warnings like unused variables and parameters . something -WUNUSED... But I ignored at that point considering it a warning and not an error ! |
| 22:11.20 | kesha | starseeker: But now I will try to find out WHY whenever I encounter it next time. |
| 22:11.25 | starseeker | kesha: do you understand what the warning means, and why it's a warning? |
| 22:14.05 | kesha | starseeker: some conditions in which it may be hazardous and fail in certain circumstances, but current compilation can go fine ignoring it. |
| 22:14.25 | starseeker | kesha: Not quite. If you aren't familiar with it already, this is a good page to know about: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Warning-Options.html |
| 22:15.12 | starseeker | kesha: an unused variable is defined, but not used by any logic in the code |
| 22:16.20 | starseeker | so it's "harmless", but also useless. If it's useless, why is it there? The compiler is telling the programmer they may want to investigate *why* the variable is unused |
| 22:18.46 | ``Erik | warning can help find things that are syntatically acceptable, but semantically incorrect... definitely worth at least understanding the cause of the warning as it could help you find a logic bug |
| 22:18.59 | starseeker | kesha: another resource I've found helpful in the past is stackoverflow - see, for example, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6164720/why-are-unused-variables-bad |
| 22:20.08 | starseeker | kesha: generally speaking, it's better to clear warnings whenever possible - the BRL-CAD code base enables a great many warning flags, and by default turns them *all* into errors (-Werror) |
| 22:21.32 | starseeker | stepcode isn't anywhere near ready for that, as far as I know, but it's a worthwhile goal to strive for - the more warnings you clear, trivial or not, the better the chance you'll see a message from the compiler telling you something you need to know. |
| 22:22.06 | starseeker | noisy code that throws lots of warnings is that much harder to work with. |
| 22:23.25 | starseeker | stepcode has a particular challenge in that it *generates* source code - often times templates that provide a set of variables for all outputs may end up using only a fraction of those variables, which can cause unused warnings |
| 22:25.45 | kesha | starseeker: yes, it generates the code, and the variable passed as parameter wasn't actually been used anywhere in the function. |
| 22:26.14 | kesha | starseeker: good to know about this. |
| 22:26.30 | starseeker | so in that case, there is a design choice to make - should the generator be smart enough to recognize that the variable is unused and add something like the UNUSED wrapper we have in BRL-CAD? |
| 22:27.05 | starseeker | that's something to talk about with the devs |
| 22:27.55 | kesha | ya, I will raise a word about it. |
| 22:29.07 | starseeker | it may be that it isn't the right time to deal with that particular issue, but the important thing is you *understand* what the issue is |
| 22:30.12 | starseeker | kesha: there will be many similar issues that come up as you look at STEPcode - as you work your way through them, your general understanding will grow and you'll begin to recognize patterns |
| 22:31.44 | starseeker | patience and perseverance are needed early on, but it's a little like learning a language - as your vocabulary grows, you understand more and more |
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