| 00:08.28 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves2 (n=4b407196@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 00:09.22 | dreeves2 | starseeker was there a reason you were asking about trimming or were you just curious about status? |
| 00:18.14 | yukonbob | dreeves needs to be told about bitchx, irssi, or similar, and perhaps screen and some always-on account... |
| 00:18.52 | yukonbob | dreeves: -----^ |
| 00:19.23 | yukonbob | (if your physical self is indeed associated with this network instance) |
| 00:29.09 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves2 (n=4b407196@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 00:47.52 | *** join/#brlcad hippieindamakin8 (n=hippiein@202.3.77.38) |
| 01:14.26 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves2 (i=dreeves@c-75-64-113-150.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) |
| 01:15.26 | dreeves2 | hey starseeker |
| 01:21.37 | yukonbob | dreeves2: are you still 'attached' to the dreeves instance here? |
| 01:29.16 | dreeves2 | I'm not near that computer currently why? |
| 01:35.59 | yukonbob | dreeves2: just wondering why you're logged in 2x ;) -- I noticed you're earlier (and this?) client was a cgi gateway, and suggested you get irssi/screen/ and some always-on account, but apparently you're already setup :) |
| 01:36.17 | yukonbob | s/you're earlier/your earlier/ |
| 01:45.05 | dreeves2 | umm no I just downloaded another client here but that is a good suggestion I have been thinking I need to get that. I will look into that later |
| 02:04.31 | *** join/#brlcad smurfette (n=pancake@c-69-247-175-242.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) |
| 02:05.50 | *** join/#brlcad PrezKennedyII (i=Matthew@whitecalf.net) |
| 02:37.59 | *** join/#brlcad PrezKennedyII (i=Matthew@whitecalf.net) |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad smurfette (n=pancake@c-69-247-175-242.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves2 (i=dreeves@c-75-64-113-150.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.128.7) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves (n=dreeves@64.178.177.71) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad SWPadnos (n=Me@emc/developer/SWPadnos) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad starseeker (n=starseek@bz.bzflag.bz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad poolio (n=poolio@bz.bzflag.bz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad yukonbob (i=1000@s142-179-54-198.bc.hsia.telus.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad bjorkintosh (n=bjork@ip72-204-40-138.fv.ks.cox.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad MinuteElectron (n=MinuteEl@unaffiliated/minuteelectron) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad d-lo (n=claymore@bz.bzflag.bz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad b0ef (n=b0ef@062016142244.customer.alfanett.no) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:38.36 | *** join/#brlcad alex_joni (n=juve@emc/board-of-directors/alexjoni) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad PrezKennedyII (i=Matthew@whitecalf.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad smurfette (n=pancake@c-69-247-175-242.hsd1.mo.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves2 (i=dreeves@c-75-64-113-150.hsd1.tn.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad SWPadnos (n=Me@emc/developer/SWPadnos) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad starseeker (n=starseek@bz.bzflag.bz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad poolio (n=poolio@bz.bzflag.bz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad yukonbob (i=1000@s142-179-54-198.bc.hsia.telus.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad bjorkintosh (n=bjork@ip72-204-40-138.fv.ks.cox.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad MinuteElectron (n=MinuteEl@unaffiliated/minuteelectron) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad d-lo (n=claymore@bz.bzflag.bz) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad b0ef (n=b0ef@062016142244.customer.alfanett.no) |
| 02:43.48 | *** join/#brlcad alex_joni (n=juve@emc/board-of-directors/alexjoni) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:45.20 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.128.7) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:45.57 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves (n=dreeves@64.178.177.71) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 02:54.05 | *** join/#brlcad tofu (n=sean@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 02:56.27 | *** join/#brlcad Ralith (n=ralith@216.162.199.202) |
| 02:56.49 | *** join/#brlcad ``Erik (i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 03:19.18 | *** join/#brlcad PrezKennedyIII (i=Matthew@whitecalf.net) |
| 05:38.31 | *** join/#brlcad tofu (n=sean@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 05:38.31 | *** join/#brlcad kanzure (i=bryan@66.112.232.233) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 05:50.26 | *** join/#brlcad tofu (n=sean@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 05:50.26 | *** join/#brlcad kanzure (i=bryan@66.112.232.233) [NETSPLIT VICTIM] |
| 06:38.30 | *** join/#brlcad cad67 (n=50fa0d86@bz.bzflag.bz) |
| 07:36.14 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.139.22) |
| 08:18.17 | *** join/#brlcad Elena (n=ebautu@89.136.118.141) |
| 08:44.47 | *** join/#brlcad Axman6 (n=Axman6@pdpc/supporter/student/Axman6) |
| 10:02.55 | *** join/#brlcad madant_ (n=d@117.196.142.36) |
| 10:20.42 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 10:41.10 | *** join/#brlcad Malyce (n=ubuntu@deimos.jacobs-university.de) |
| 10:42.43 | Malyce | I built brlcad with 'make' in /home/ubuntu/brl-sf I ran ./configure --prefix=/home/ubuntu/brl-sf for the rt^3 module |
| 10:42.45 | Malyce | http://bzflag.pastebin.ca/1389557 |
| 10:43.19 | Malyce | the ./configure went fine, but make died |
| 10:45.24 | *** join/#brlcad Elena (n=ebautu@89.136.118.141) |
| 12:36.37 | *** join/#brlcad Elena (n=ebautu@89.136.118.141) |
| 13:35.41 | *** join/#brlcad dreeves (n=dreeves@64.178.177.71) |
| 14:38.15 | *** join/#brlcad elite01_ (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 14:48.05 | *** join/#brlcad Malyce (n=ubuntu@wlanaccess-ext.jacobs-university.de) |
| 15:18.09 | *** join/#brlcad typ0 (n=coder@um-sd06-125-2.uni-mb.si) |
| 15:44.13 | *** join/#brlcad hippieindamakin8 (n=hippiein@202.3.77.38) |
| 16:21.48 | *** join/#brlcad clark8 (n=DarioDJ@host22-201-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 16:22.09 | clark8 | ei |
| 16:22.59 | *** part/#brlcad clark8 (n=DarioDJ@host22-201-dynamic.55-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) |
| 16:50.48 | *** join/#brlcad hippieindamakin8 (n=hippiein@202.3.77.38) |
| 18:43.17 | *** join/#brlcad Elena (n=ebautu@89.136.118.141) |
| 19:30.36 | *** join/#brlcad elite01 (n=omg@unaffiliated/elite01) |
| 20:16.00 | *** join/#brlcad Elena (n=ebautu@89.136.118.141) |
| 20:30.56 | *** join/#brlcad madant (n=d@117.196.142.36) |
| 20:32.16 | *** join/#brlcad FAMULUS (n=mark@ool-ad028f27.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 20:34.04 | FAMULUS | are there improvements to g-stl since version 7.12.2? |
| 20:34.35 | FAMULUS | g-stl is slow as molasses |
| 20:42.24 | tofu | FAMULUS: not any changes that will affect it's performance |
| 20:42.27 | tofu | patches welcome ;) |
| 20:44.29 | Ralith | FAMULUS: eventually it'll get deprecated by brep based stuff |
| 20:44.45 | tofu | not really, at least not g-stl |
| 20:45.11 | tofu | stl is a polygonal format -- going through the brep routines might make some things that used to fail no longer fail |
| 20:45.47 | tofu | but the reason it takes a long time is because it's trying to verify that the mesh being exported is clean with normals facing outward and solid |
| 20:46.05 | tofu | expensive operation that wouldn't go away with brep necessarily |
| 20:46.37 | tofu | FAMULUS: you could use the newer bot_dump command that is MUCH faster (as it makes absolutely no attempt to verify anything being exported |
| 20:47.02 | Ralith | I got the impression that brep would make mesh generation relatively reliable, lessening the need for verif. |
| 20:47.52 | tofu | sure, more robust for the things that presently fail (which is like approx < 1% of geometry, but prevalent enough) |
| 20:48.01 | FAMULUS | hey guys |
| 20:48.06 | tofu | still, that's just not the time-intensive step |
| 20:48.41 | FAMULUS | tofu: would bot_dump be expected to produce usable STL files? |
| 20:48.49 | tofu | you can not do that verification now (hence bot_dump), it's more supposed to be a guarantee of a solid modeling system to always import/export solid objects |
| 20:49.07 | tofu | FAMULUS: sure stl is a stupid format |
| 20:49.12 | tofu | it doesn't care |
| 20:49.28 | tofu | just if you feed that STL into another solid modeling system, it may or may not work |
| 20:49.43 | tofu | as it may or may not be solid |
| 20:49.48 | FAMULUS | my target would be a rapid prototyper |
| 20:50.17 | tofu | ideally for a rapid prototyper, I'd expect a need for solid geometry |
| 20:50.29 | tofu | but then there are lots of other variables |
| 20:50.37 | FAMULUS | tofu: ok, so g-stl is the only way to got now |
| 20:51.03 | tofu | if you have a rapid prototyping system that takes stl inputs, it may very well clean up on import too or have other ways of dealing with non-solid mesh geometry |
| 20:51.32 | tofu | no, I"d say try bot_dump out if performance is really a problem and not just an annoyance, see what the impact is |
| 20:51.49 | tofu | otherwise, make it better ;) |
| 20:51.52 | FAMULUS | tofu: ok, that's my project for today |
| 20:52.02 | tofu | the verification/closure algorithm isn't optimized, I'm sure |
| 20:52.08 | FAMULUS | tofu: my stls take like days, it's a non starter |
| 20:52.20 | tofu | how big of a mesh? |
| 20:52.31 | FAMULUS | 10,000 triangesl |
| 20:52.37 | FAMULUS | for smaller pieces |
| 20:52.39 | tofu | that's not that big |
| 20:52.42 | FAMULUS | but large ones |
| 20:52.43 | tofu | how many objects? |
| 20:52.57 | FAMULUS | good question, one sec |
| 20:54.35 | tofu | another issue, stil files are "single object" files, so if you have a hierarchy or big assembly of objects, the code has to combine them all into one collection |
| 20:54.54 | tofu | that unification can take a long (O(N^3)) time |
| 20:55.27 | FAMULUS | tofu: how do I get count directly, I can't copy from mged terminal |
| 20:56.43 | Ralith | tofu: really? I would have imagined that traversing even a large tree would be pretty fast, in human terms |
| 20:57.02 | Ralith | performing all the boolean ops on meshes, perhaps less so |
| 20:57.14 | FAMULUS | I'd guess ~200 objects |
| 20:57.43 | tofu | nothing to do with traversing the tree, it's the "merge mesh A into mesh B, performing pairwise tests across the sets, them merge in mesh C and do that again, then merge in mesh D, etd etc |
| 20:57.50 | FAMULUS | http://prometheusfusionperfection.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/chassis-redesign/ |
| 20:57.58 | FAMULUS | this is the part |
| 20:59.02 | tofu | hm, yeah -- I bet it's the way you're doing your booleans causing it to be a worst case N^3 |
| 20:59.11 | tofu | did you make any reqgions? |
| 20:59.14 | tofu | regions |
| 20:59.21 | FAMULUS | tofu: I think |
| 20:59.22 | Ralith | FAMULUS: you modeled that in mged? Nice! |
| 20:59.38 | FAMULUS | `#{mged} 'r torus_negative#{index} u torus_negative_outer#{index} - torus_negative_inner#{index} '` #this hollow center of the torus |
| 20:59.52 | FAMULUS | Ralith: ruby emitting mged commands |
| 21:00.04 | Ralith | still nice. |
| 21:00.05 | Ralith | very pretty. |
| 21:00.09 | FAMULUS | Ralith: thanks! |
| 21:00.12 | Ralith | what is it? |
| 21:00.19 | hippieindamakin8 | FAMULUS, Ralith +1 |
| 21:00.29 | FAMULUS | It's a fusion reactor core |
| 21:00.53 | FAMULUS | Ralith: about: http://prometheusfusionperfection.wordpress.com/about/ |
| 21:00.55 | Ralith | and you plan on rapid prototyping it? O.o |
| 21:01.03 | ``Erik | the topology verifier is superlinear, it's an unavoidable suck. B-rep/NURB will only make it not suck if everything is in nurbs |
| 21:01.42 | ``Erik | (make mged accept ruby statements, then we'll be impressed ;) |
| 21:01.47 | FAMULUS | Ralith: alread got test parts: http://prometheusfusionperfection.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/manifest/ |
| 21:02.15 | Ralith | cool! |
| 21:02.19 | Ralith | best of luck to you. |
| 21:03.20 | Ralith | are you expecting to get positive net energy? |
| 21:03.40 | FAMULUS | Ralith: supposedly it's possible with bussard reactor |
| 21:03.48 | FAMULUS | Ralith: my goal for now is first fusion |
| 21:03.59 | Ralith | you realize that research teams with millions in funding haven't managed that. |
| 21:04.06 | FAMULUS | Ralith: I know |
| 21:04.07 | tofu | FAMULUS: it might take a while for someone to look into it, but you could post your .g file up somewhere (maybe to the sf.net tracker) to investigate if there's something simple that can be done to speed things up |
| 21:04.22 | FAMULUS | Ralith: that's why it's so exciting |
| 21:05.51 | FAMULUS | Ralith: the fusor (the precursor to bussard reactor) has a long tradition of amateurs (14 or so) |
| 21:06.00 | FAMULUS | Ralith: so it's not unreasonable to think it possible |
| 21:07.12 | Ralith | I imagine so. |
| 21:07.22 | Ralith | nevertheless, you'll embarass a lot of people if you manage |
| 21:08.46 | Ralith | looks like you have a pretty good idea what you're doing, certainly |
| 21:09.20 | ``Erik | embarrassing a lot of people is a good thing |
| 21:09.24 | FAMULUS | Ralith: I lean alot alot every day |
| 21:09.30 | FAMULUS | learn^ |
| 21:09.34 | ``Erik | it's a loud "get your head out of your ass" |
| 21:09.40 | ``Erik | also; "a lot" is two words |
| 21:10.27 | Ralith | embarassing people is indeed positive. |
| 21:10.33 | Ralith | especially people with millions of dollars. |
| 21:11.39 | FAMULUS | Ralith: I got to get mged working before any embarassing happens!~ |
| 21:11.48 | Ralith | heh |
| 21:12.06 | FAMULUS | brb, heading to cafe. |
| 21:20.02 | Ralith | tofu: just how fast *is* bot_dump? |
| 21:20.14 | Ralith | fast enough to use it for shaded rendering? |
| 21:22.13 | *** join/#brlcad FAMULUS (n=mark@pool-98-116-35-99.nycmny.east.verizon.net) |
| 21:25.43 | ``Erik | no |
| 21:26.04 | Ralith | damn. |
| 21:26.33 | FAMULUS | tofu: is bot_dump available in 7.12.2? |
| 21:29.52 | Ralith | FAMULUS: any reason not to update? |
| 21:30.18 | Ralith | also: I suspect most rapid prototyping services are used to recieving non-solid STLs from graphic artists and such, so you'll probably be ok |
| 21:30.45 | ``Erik | I suspect most of them charge a fair amount if they have to 'fix' the geometry |
| 21:31.38 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03Ralith 07http://brlcad.org * r1382 10/wiki/User:Ralith: Added first draft of milestones for OpenGL GUI SoC proposal |
| 21:32.09 | Ralith | I'd be surprised |
| 21:32.11 | ``Erik | ralith: iirc, bot_dump expects bot geometry and just walks the tree dumping raw numbers |
| 21:32.13 | Ralith | but I haven't done it. |
| 21:32.30 | Ralith | ``Erik: er, so not at all useful for generating tesselations of solid models? |
| 21:32.57 | ``Erik | a sphere, for example, is not a bot, so does not dump directly. Would have to go through the NMG pass before being bot_dump-able |
| 21:33.32 | ``Erik | we have some pieces done in a 3d printer at the office, they take stl but they have to be well defined stl's |
| 21:33.56 | Ralith | well, of course. |
| 21:33.58 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: does bot_dump produce stls? |
| 21:34.03 | Ralith | brbs |
| 21:34.09 | Ralith | wtf, brlcad's not here |
| 21:34.11 | Ralith | oh well |
| 21:34.18 | ``Erik | bot_dump produces funky 'bot' files, but stl's aren't much different |
| 21:34.43 | ``Erik | uhhhhhhh, I think there's a flag to g-stl to ignore topology verification, which makes it really fast |
| 21:34.58 | ``Erik | (if not, there should be *hint* *hint*) |
| 21:36.25 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: we'll if I'm stuck with slow g-stl, I was thinking running on a ec2 instance |
| 21:36.38 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: so I can forget about it for a while |
| 21:36.51 | ``Erik | technically, BOT allows irregular geometry (the kind video game weenies like) |
| 21:37.06 | ``Erik | so bot->printableSTL requires verification |
| 21:37.15 | ``Erik | knowwutahmean,vern? |
| 21:37.21 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: which is what makes it slow |
| 21:37.31 | ``Erik | ayup :( |
| 21:37.32 | FAMULUS | so the verification ^ |
| 21:38.02 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: is BRL-CAD easy to install on ubuntu |
| 21:38.18 | ``Erik | I suspect so, famulus... I don't use linux, so *shrug* |
| 21:38.49 | ``Erik | I used to maintain the debian port, but I lost my debian box due to political cocksuckery |
| 21:39.35 | ``Erik | "linux" is in the regular maintenance path, though, so if you have the right deps installed, it should compile easy |
| 21:39.53 | FAMULUS | ok |
| 21:40.05 | ``Erik | (brlcad, starseeker and I tend to use redhat mostly, I think starseeker uses gentoo or something, as well) |
| 21:40.20 | *** join/#brlcad kanzure (i=bryan@66.112.232.233) |
| 21:40.43 | ``Erik | <-- hard up on fbsd, brlcad is big on osX |
| 21:40.45 | ``Erik | :) |
| 21:41.07 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: my laptop is os x, but EC2 would be ubuntu |
| 21:41.24 | ``Erik | but we all have a serious hardon for portability, so we drag it to solaris or irix once in a while, and I'm big into 'mega' unix portability, hpux and aix and those |
| 21:41.28 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: I can't let g-stl process for days, I need to close my laptop |
| 21:41.47 | ``Erik | even has an image sitting around for a BSD4.3 on vax11/780 |
| 21:41.57 | ``Erik | why do you need to close it? |
| 21:42.06 | ``Erik | I leave my macbook open for, uh, months at a whack |
| 21:42.11 | ``Erik | I only shut it down when I have to fly |
| 21:42.14 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: you know, scene changes |
| 21:42.18 | FAMULUS | going to work |
| 21:42.21 | FAMULUS | etc |
| 21:42.41 | ``Erik | huh, well, if you close your macbook, it sleeps, it doesn't shut down |
| 21:42.53 | ``Erik | so when you open it, it loads up the memory image and continues |
| 21:43.06 | ``Erik | *shrug* |
| 21:43.16 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: true |
| 21:43.26 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: but you can't really use it without a plug |
| 21:43.31 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: CPU pegged |
| 21:43.37 | ``Erik | "man nice" |
| 21:43.45 | ``Erik | "man batch" |
| 21:44.10 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: good idea |
| 21:44.23 | ``Erik | (leave the laptop at home *cough*) |
| 21:45.03 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: that's what servers are for |
| 21:45.07 | ``Erik | ayup |
| 21:45.29 | ``Erik | I seem to be saying "uh, start it on friday and come back on monday" a lot lately :( |
| 21:45.30 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: would a g-stil web service be useful to community? |
| 21:45.48 | ``Erik | I'd be surprised |
| 21:46.00 | ``Erik | the cost of such a service would outweigh 99.9999% folks benefits |
| 21:46.23 | ``Erik | feel free to try it, but I don't think it'd be ... profitable? |
| 21:46.57 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: so I'm the only person with this issue? |
| 21:47.15 | ``Erik | the "NMG is slow" is a known issue |
| 21:48.47 | FAMULUS | n-manifold geometry |
| 21:49.50 | ``Erik | also called "non-manifold geometry", sometimes both in the same documentation :( |
| 21:50.06 | ``Erik | (including, apparently, the original paper Muuss did) |
| 21:50.14 | Ralith | heh |
| 21:50.38 | ``Erik | was a topic of discussion last thursday or so |
| 21:50.45 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: I don't see a wikipedia article for that |
| 21:50.53 | Ralith | FAMULUS: I'd try disabling the verification in g-stl and sending off the resultant file. Worst-case scenario, they ask you to send them a fixed one. |
| 21:51.31 | FAMULUS | Ralith: what's flag for that? |
| 21:51.40 | Ralith | no idea |
| 21:51.50 | Ralith | as ``Erik says, it may not exist. |
| 21:51.52 | Ralith | might not be too hard to add. |
| 21:52.06 | Ralith | on an unrelated note |
| 21:52.09 | Ralith | ``Erik: you mentoring? |
| 21:52.28 | ``Erik | does not see such a flag |
| 21:52.42 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: vaporware |
| 21:52.43 | ``Erik | um, I'm listed as an admin and kinda thinking my roll will be admin, a mentor for mentors |
| 21:53.06 | Ralith | that probably works too. |
| 21:53.11 | Ralith | could I talk ya into reviewing my milestones? |
| 21:53.21 | ``Erik | though I'm always willing to help with spot details here :) |
| 21:53.43 | ``Erik | um, yeah, I suppose I should look at the applicants, yes |
| 21:53.47 | Ralith | hehe |
| 21:53.48 | hippieindamakin8 | Ralith, done with the patch ? |
| 21:53.52 | Ralith | what patch |
| 21:53.59 | ``Erik | we kinda request a patch up front |
| 21:54.08 | Ralith | oh that |
| 21:54.16 | ``Erik | to verify that you know how to code, can use the VCS, etc |
| 21:54.21 | Ralith | well, considering that I've made several miscellaneous commits in the last few weeks... |
| 21:54.21 | hippieindamakin8 | is working on it now :|.. |
| 21:54.29 | ``Erik | nothin' big, but it's a stumbling block for many |
| 21:54.30 | Ralith | I think I've got that covered. |
| 21:54.32 | hippieindamakin8 | Ralith, that should do i guess |
| 21:54.58 | hippieindamakin8 | loves his fresh archlinux install |
| 21:55.07 | Ralith | ``Erik: unless I actually should find myself something else to code up? |
| 21:55.13 | Ralith | perhaps this g-stl flag, even. |
| 21:55.27 | Ralith | also that reminds me |
| 21:55.42 | Ralith | FAMULUS: getting BRL-CAD running on linux is easy, even if you have to compile it by hand; I wouldn't be concerned. |
| 21:56.04 | Ralith | has ran it on every linux/unix system he's had, and it's always been one of the easiest bits. |
| 21:56.14 | FAMULUS | Ralith: ok good |
| 21:56.25 | ``Erik | if you're committing, you're already in the circle the patch is for |
| 21:56.32 | Ralith | yeah, that's what I thought. |
| 21:56.47 | hippieindamakin8 | Ralith, yeah watever be the case.. most debian systems have the problem of the missing libx11-dev files |
| 21:56.48 | Ralith | good to have it confirmed. |
| 21:57.02 | Ralith | hippieindamakin8: er, can't you just install libx11-dev then? |
| 21:57.04 | hippieindamakin8 | gets back to work .. :P |
| 21:57.15 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: have you guys though about using github? |
| 21:57.22 | Ralith | FAMULUS: to host the repo? O.o |
| 21:57.27 | ``Erik | erm |
| 21:57.29 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: makes it easier to contribute I think |
| 21:57.33 | hippieindamakin8 | Ralith, yeah , u have to :) |
| 21:57.34 | Ralith | changing versioning systems would be a huge deal. |
| 21:57.40 | Ralith | hippieindamakin8: well of course you do |
| 21:57.42 | Ralith | but that's trivial |
| 21:57.44 | kanzure | does the svn-to-git software even work yet? |
| 21:58.04 | ``Erik | we just went through the pain of cvs->svn, and I think we like the centralized VCS |
| 21:58.04 | ``Erik | :) |
| 21:58.04 | Ralith | does like how arch installs headers with everything, though |
| 21:58.13 | hippieindamakin8 | Ralith, exactly :) |
| 21:58.16 | ``Erik | effin' HATES how one of his projects has deps that require: CVS, SVN, darcs, git, ... |
| 21:58.32 | ``Erik | ralith: if you like that, check out one of the BSD's |
| 21:58.40 | ``Erik | we've been doin' it that way since, uh, the 80's |
| 21:58.40 | ``Erik | :D |
| 21:58.41 | Ralith | I used to run FreeBSD. |
| 21:58.47 | Ralith | I got tired of waiting hours for firefox to compile :P |
| 21:58.51 | ``Erik | hehehe |
| 21:58.56 | Ralith | arch is a good compromise |
| 21:59.00 | ``Erik | pkg_add can grab a binary |
| 21:59.05 | Ralith | minimal and dev-friendly, but binary-friendly too |
| 21:59.20 | Ralith | sure, it *can*, but the system's really made to use sources, and binaries can lead to problems |
| 21:59.28 | ``Erik | *shrug* whatever makes you happy :) I like fbsd myself, I'm ok with letting a "portmanager -u -bu -l" run overnight |
| 21:59.42 | ``Erik | ain't in no rush these days |
| 21:59.47 | Ralith | I've been knocking back and forth between sourcebased and binbased systems for a while |
| 22:00.24 | Ralith | back on the VC subject, I have to say, it's *really* nice to be able to do local commits; helps keep commits small and focused on single logical changes, and helps keep the main repo fully functional (i.e. no half-implemented features) |
| 22:01.00 | ``Erik | hm, do it in the upstream VCS, mebbe one of your commits will be you fighting something that someone has an easy answer for |
| 22:01.15 | Ralith | huh? |
| 22:01.24 | ``Erik | if it's broken, wrap the broken stuff in #if 0, if it's a big breakage, make a branch |
| 22:01.31 | Ralith | sure, that works |
| 22:01.34 | Ralith | but it's a bit ugly |
| 22:01.53 | ``Erik | if you commit something small cuz you're struggling with a lame issue and brlcad or drossberg or I say "well, dur, just do this", that might save you many many many hours |
| 22:02.09 | Ralith | centralized versioning encourages making commits relatively large. |
| 22:02.27 | ``Erik | and my tire iron encourages keeping them small and frequent |
| 22:02.28 | ``Erik | O:-) |
| 22:02.30 | Ralith | hehe |
| 22:03.29 | Ralith | so how closely are students expected to stick to their timeline? |
| 22:03.50 | Ralith | I need to write one up, but I really am not sure how much time to allocate to any given milestone. |
| 22:03.52 | ``Erik | students are expected to communicate with their mentors |
| 22:04.55 | tofu | on the contrary, to be *effective*, centralized requires small succinct commits |
| 22:05.05 | ``Erik | timelines change, that's known, *shrug* can't do anything about it, it's reality. but it's a big growing point in a developers growth to be able to admit the change happens and work around it, opposed to pretending it's a failure and trying to hiding it |
| 22:05.13 | tofu | at best a different work breakdown structure, so that you can work on small pieces that are all fully functional |
| 22:05.36 | ``Erik | tofu: to be effective, yes, but some people don't want to present code until it's "perfect" :( |
| 22:05.39 | tofu | there's nothing inherint to the system that encourages larger commits other than really bad practice |
| 22:05.41 | Ralith | tofu: I'm not sure that's always feasible. |
| 22:05.55 | Ralith | though I guess I really lack the experience to argue this very effectively |
| 22:06.05 | ``Erik | distributed VCS allows people to go hide in a corner and pretend they're good citizens |
| 22:06.22 | tofu | Ralith: i've heard that claim many a time over, but not once has it actually been shown to be true -- it's folks not wanting to change their work breakdown |
| 22:06.39 | Ralith | fine, fine |
| 22:07.13 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: I would argue that git/github lowers the barrier to entry for contribution |
| 22:07.56 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: just fork the repo and off you go |
| 22:08.06 | ``Erik | I'd argue that dvcs tends to contribute to bad behavior wrt FOSS citizenship |
| 22:08.09 | tofu | Ralith: and bot_dump isn't fast/slow -- it just dumps the data for a triangle mesh to the prescribed format |
| 22:08.12 | ``Erik | exactly! "fork the repo" is bad |
| 22:08.29 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: I say it's good! |
| 22:08.35 | tofu | it doesn't actually tessellation, you need a BoT to start with |
| 22:08.40 | Ralith | tofu: yeah, I misunderstood; thought you were proposing it as an unchecked equivalent to g-stl |
| 22:08.41 | ``Erik | you disassociate from the community when you do that |
| 22:08.57 | ``Erik | and that's the single thing that makes foss awesome, the community... you're throwing away the #1 advantage |
| 22:09.22 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: I completely disagree. If someone does some hotness it wll get merged |
| 22:09.48 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: and even before that, you can see someone is ahead of the main repo (via the graph) |
| 22:10.00 | FAMULUS | ``Erik: and sometimes it's the probem you had |
| 22:10.08 | ``Erik | I'm learning a new framework in a new language with a new editor and everything... I ask really stupid questions, frequently. I share what I'm doing often. The framework authors and gurus are updating the framework frequently, and their documentation... because of my stupidness :) it's good! |
| 22:11.00 | ``Erik | the gurus doing hotness will know how to behave with svn, the 'average' new contributor will greatly benefit and will benefit the community by making their education public |
| 22:11.01 | ``Erik | :) |
| 22:12.46 | tofu | FAMULUS: this argument of centralized over distributed is a very old and tired debate, frankly -- and not one that hasn't been considered and discussed many times over |
| 22:13.02 | FAMULUS | tofu: agreed. I don't really care |
| 22:13.03 | tofu | there are counter arguments and downsides to distributed |
| 22:13.16 | tofu | just as there are for centralized |
| 22:14.24 | tofu | code dumps are generally very unhealthy for a codebase, no matter how 'hotness' a feature is |
| 22:15.02 | tofu | especially if it's development hasn't been communicated throughout development, it is very often a foreign mismatched codebase with a near 1 bus factor |
| 22:16.01 | tofu | communication is key, and you can have healthy/unhealthy communication regardless of being distributed or centralized, with the only difference being that distributed doesn't require it and centralized exposes earlier |
| 22:16.47 | FAMULUS | tofu: how do I invoke dot_dump? |
| 22:16.52 | FAMULUS | bot_dump |
| 22:16.54 | tofu | when the dev team is small, i.e. less than 50 or so active committers, the hierarchical approach that distributed allows isn't really gained |
| 22:17.28 | tofu | are you asking and answering your own question? |
| 22:17.34 | tofu | ah, dot |
| 22:17.42 | tofu | that's the answer, bot_dump |
| 22:18.00 | FAMULUS | ok |
| 22:18.00 | tofu | added in 7.14.2 |
| 22:18.03 | FAMULUS | ah ok |
| 22:18.15 | tofu | tell me you at least tried before asking how you run "bot_dump" :) |
| 22:18.17 | FAMULUS | so for os x, I'll have to compile to get that version? |
| 22:18.50 | tofu | yes, there hasn't been a binary os x release in a while |
| 22:19.02 | FAMULUS | tofu: ok, so thats my next move |
| 22:24.11 | *** mode/#brlcad [+o brlcad] by ChanServ |
| 22:27.11 | *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-155.sbndin.btas.verizon.net) |
| 22:30.41 | ``Erik | doh, hah, karel keeps using _sushi_, for some reason, I got a mental crosswire on handle vs person |
| 23:07.51 | Ralith | mm, sushi |
| 23:23.29 | *** join/#brlcad FAMULUS (n=mark@ool-ad028f27.dyn.optonline.net) |
| 23:25.30 | yukonbob | reads scrollback |
| 23:26.09 | madant | is a strict non-fish-arian |
| 23:29.04 | Ralith | enjoys some easter chocolate as he works on his timeline |
| 23:29.35 | ``Erik | drinks some sunday vodka and watches tv |
| 23:36.42 | madant | just had some water :| , breakfast in 2.5 hours |
| 23:50.44 | CIA-28 | BRL-CAD: 03Ralith 07http://brlcad.org * r1383 10/wiki/User:Ralith: Added first draft of timeline for OpenGL GUI SoC proposal |
| 23:51.11 | Ralith | heh, CIA dropped the notification before I managed to load the page. |
| 23:55.17 | brlcad | :) |
| 23:59.57 | *** join/#brlcad BigAToo (n=BigAToo@pool-96-230-124-155.sbndin.btas.verizon.net) |