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| 10:02.42 | brlcad | svn rebuild completed a couple hours ago, but still uploading to sf.net .. eta about 4 hours to test it |
| 10:03.23 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: I'm still working on the video... |
| 10:03.41 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: now I have a problem that I didn't get a permission for the end titles so I have to use a different tune that means resynchronize again |
| 10:04.06 | Z80-Boy | And I wrote a software to put backgrounds on videos of rendered models using the floating point double distance |
| 10:04.17 | Z80-Boy | Now I want to put more backgrounds which I took pictures of |
| 10:05.25 | brlcad | cool |
| 10:05.37 | brlcad | lemme know when new one is re-encoded |
| 10:05.58 | Z80-Boy | have you seen it already with the backgrounds? |
| 10:06.35 | Z80-Boy | If not, mplayer http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/all.ogg |
| 10:08.58 | brlcad | that light wall makes it a bit harder to see the brick wall |
| 10:09.09 | brlcad | seems out of scale a bit too |
| 10:10.14 | Z80-Boy | yes I want to change the backgrounds to fix this problem |
| 10:10.23 | brlcad | they're not bad, but they contrast the rendering heavily |
| 10:10.44 | Z80-Boy | Do you think they are better than a black background? |
| 10:11.27 | brlcad | maybe only layer them at 40% transparency to black so they're darker and just faint notions |
| 10:12.37 | Z80-Boy | sounds like a good idea to me |
| 10:12.38 | brlcad | otherwise, as is, I think I did like the black better, less busy, real consistent |
| 10:12.41 | Z80-Boy | I was always bad in art |
| 10:12.43 | Z80-Boy | ;-) |
| 10:12.54 | Z80-Boy | I hated how it was all computersy |
| 10:13.12 | Z80-Boy | If I got a video like that I would be bored in 5 seconds |
| 10:15.13 | brlcad | you could speed up the rotations a bit or even better maybe would be to do a bell curve accelleration where it spins fast-slow-fast like it's slowing down to show you various angles |
| 10:15.14 | Z80-Boy | What I don't like onm open source is it's often as boring as a teddy bear |
| 10:16.03 | brlcad | (e.g., try to get it under 2 min with same content) |
| 10:16.11 | Z80-Boy | If I work on my own free software I find it amazing. But if I come into contact with another one I find it boring. |
| 10:16.18 | Z80-Boy | I think the expression is missing somewhere |
| 10:16.24 | Z80-Boy | Yes I could make it twice as fast |
| 10:16.39 | brlcad | might be too fast, hard to say without seeing it |
| 10:16.55 | Z80-Boy | There's even a rule in filmmaking |
| 10:17.01 | Z80-Boy | that you should often speed up the movie |
| 10:17.15 | Z80-Boy | Because otherwise movements at natural speed are boring long |
| 10:17.35 | Z80-Boy | Like if you watch Dogtown and Z-Boys... |
| 10:17.59 | Z80-Boy | The guys look like skateboarding on a different planet because their period is too short for what I know from the skate park. |
| 10:18.04 | brlcad | transitions between the objects, even as simple frame fades/blends of next for all of 2-4 seconds would help |
| 10:18.19 | Z80-Boy | Why? |
| 10:18.28 | Z80-Boy | In movies you often have plain cuts and it looks great |
| 10:18.55 | brlcad | yeah, but they also change the camera view on every cut |
| 10:19.04 | brlcad | you're not, you're changing the model |
| 10:19.33 | Z80-Boy | are you sure they change the view? Is it some kind of rule for good filmmaking? |
| 10:19.38 | brlcad | if the camera popped around or was moving, the plain cuts would work well |
| 10:19.41 | Z80-Boy | All I know one should not change over "the line" :) |
| 10:20.40 | brlcad | ever watch an episode of battlestar galactica? they take it to an extreme where what are subtle camera movements are intentionally *very* exaggerated |
| 10:21.04 | Z80-Boy | haven't seen battlestar galactica |
| 10:22.01 | brlcad | of the ken burns effect, famous for making entire movies out of still pictures |
| 10:22.17 | brlcad | by simply shifting the camera slowly, slow pans/zooms |
| 10:22.27 | brlcad | s/of/or/ |
| 10:22.32 | Z80-Boy | Peralta uses tons of stills |
| 10:22.38 | Z80-Boy | because he simply didn't have the material |
| 10:22.49 | Z80-Boy | And it lookss amazingly earthshattering |
| 10:24.29 | brlcad | heh, peralta used the ken burns effect |
| 10:24.37 | Z80-Boy | Oh Ken Burns is slowly panning or zooming |
| 10:24.42 | Z80-Boy | No Peralta effect is something else |
| 10:25.11 | Z80-Boy | It's turning the pictures around, shaking them, zooming, panning, blending, inverting colours wildly :) |
| 10:25.42 | Z80-Boy | Peralta is a director *AND* a world class skater. He knows how to make things kick ass ;-) |
| 10:25.49 | brlcad | I'd be surprised if he was the first to do that :) |
| 10:26.27 | brlcad | at least there's no ref to it as a discernable style other than references I found that he uses ken burns a lot |
| 10:26.39 | brlcad | at least in some of his films |
| 10:27.42 | Z80-Boy | I realized we're basically punks |
| 10:28.13 | Z80-Boy | Like Iggy Pop is a punk in music, The Z-Boys were punks in skateboarding, I and lots of other free software authors are punks in computers |
| 10:29.19 | Z80-Boy | When BRL-CAD came out as free software, wanting it or not, it became a punk.; |
| 10:29.43 | brlcad | it's always been free (as in beer) |
| 10:29.56 | Z80-Boy | Isn't it something like if the US Army in 1969 suddenly said "screw killing people" and all flied from Vietnam to Woodstock |
| 10:29.59 | brlcad | and mostly-free (as in rights) |
| 10:30.47 | brlcad | basically just registration, but then you could do almost anything except redistribute including get source code |
| 10:31.16 | Z80-Boy | That's however still not free software |
| 10:31.28 | Z80-Boy | Now it's free software since 2004 |
| 10:31.31 | brlcad | it's not FOSS per OSI definition |
| 10:31.58 | brlcad | "free software" is just too generic/vague by itself |
| 10:32.10 | Z80-Boy | free software is defined by the Free Software Foundation |
| 10:32.48 | Z80-Boy | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software |
| 10:33.00 | Z80-Boy | What I like on the GPL is that it's the "Locals only" culture |
| 10:33.05 | brlcad | that would be "Free software" |
| 10:33.14 | brlcad | where I at least think the case really matters |
| 10:33.54 | brlcad | as the intent is to make it a proper noun |
| 10:34.15 | brlcad | otherwise, free is as free is defined by the dictionaries and can mean several things |
| 10:34.22 | curious | cyberpunk... |
| 10:34.33 | Z80-Boy | omg curious is also here? |
| 10:34.57 | brlcad | he's been here for quite a while |
| 10:35.17 | Z80-Boy | he talks often about diseases or biology |
| 10:37.47 | brlcad | since November apparently |
| 10:37.50 | Z80-Boy | Here is "Why "Open Source" misses the point of Free Software" http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/open-source-misses-the-point.html |
| 10:38.02 | brlcad | yeah yeah |
| 10:38.05 | brlcad | RMS's lil rant |
| 10:38.25 | Z80-Boy | how do you view this FS vs. OS matter? |
| 10:38.45 | brlcad | he's got his reasons and there's counter positions to all of them like most issues that are mostly religion |
| 10:39.35 | Z80-Boy | "Open source is a development methodology; free software is a social movement." |
| 10:39.40 | Z80-Boy | That's what I like |
| 10:40.05 | Z80-Boy | On the other way " |
| 10:40.08 | Z80-Boy | For the free software movement, free software is an ethical imperative, because only free software respects the users' freedom." |
| 10:40.36 | Z80-Boy | I wrote to Stallman what he thinks about Ronja and he said free hardware is not an ethical imperative because you can run software for free whereas for making hardware you have to pay money |
| 10:41.00 | brlcad | at least he wants it to be a social movement, a matter of ethics and morality, where in practice most of the industry sees him as a crackpot zealot that does more to hurt that same movement than he does to help |
| 10:41.16 | Z80-Boy | Which I don't agree because you still have to pay a PC if you want to run software, and the cost of material in free hardware is often laughable. |
| 10:42.02 | Z80-Boy | I don't matter if he's a crackpot zealot, but I think he should visit a visagist and buy a yearly card for a gym. |
| 10:42.06 | brlcad | the industry is still predominantly driven by the openness of the software more than it is by our "rights and freedoms" .. most simply don't care |
| 10:42.26 | Z80-Boy | companies couldn't care less about rights and freedoms of course |
| 10:42.38 | Z80-Boy | They care about the cost reduction |
| 10:43.08 | Z80-Boy | And when they even stop caring about the copyright, Harald Welte from gplviolations.org reminds them friendly through a court verdict ;> |
| 10:43.08 | curious | open patents and open hardware is what i encourage too, though from my perspective it's mainly to prevent forming of corporations and monopolies |
| 10:43.13 | brlcad | companies are snowballing the industry's accelleration but they're not the driver |
| 10:43.26 | Z80-Boy | who's the driver? |
| 10:43.51 | curious | m0 parasite ;) |
| 10:44.25 | brlcad | a couple thousand of the project leads across the FOSS industry, actual people, developers |
| 10:44.36 | brlcad | that are almost entirely driven by the sheer love of coding |
| 10:44.58 | Z80-Boy | Z-Boys claimed to be entirely driven by the sheer love of skateboarding |
| 10:45.14 | Z80-Boy | And when they switched to the sheer love of many, they went down a very steep ramp ;-) |
| 10:45.23 | brlcad | there were more than 200 of the top project leads for just about every major open source project at the mentor summit this past summer |
| 10:45.35 | Z80-Boy | many -> money |
| 10:45.47 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: what does a "project lead" mean? |
| 10:46.13 | curious | btw , #philosophy ;) chat went bit offtopic... |
| 10:46.24 | brlcad | it was noted by several of us during the conference that we had by *far* the most concentrated gather of open source leads probably ever (considerably more than OSCon) simply by the nature of the program |
| 10:46.30 | Z80-Boy | no it's on topic since BRL-CAD is free software |
| 10:46.32 | brlcad | s/gather/gathering/ |
| 10:47.10 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: who "we"? BRL-CAD? And what's an "open source lead"? |
| 10:47.41 | brlcad | means people that are principle contributors with the influence, control, authority, merit, heritage, history, respect, whatever to lead the project |
| 10:48.11 | brlcad | we is not BRL-CAD .. we was representatives from those funded by Google for the Google Summer of Code |
| 10:48.25 | brlcad | many major projects |
| 10:49.09 | Z80-Boy | "simply by the nature of the program" -> which one then when you were developers of many different programs? |
| 10:50.08 | brlcad | http://code.google.com/soc/2007/ |
| 10:51.09 | brlcad | those orgs, the likes of debian, gentoo, freebsd, linux kernel, kde, gnome, apache foundation, python foundation, gcc folks, on and on |
| 10:52.15 | Z80-Boy | I once looked at the SoC and found it heavily underpaid |
| 10:52.20 | brlcad | we had a mentor summit where the project leads for those organizations all got together to talk about the program, share our experiences, many discussions and presentations, exchanging ideas, thoughts, philosophies .. |
| 10:53.07 | brlcad | it's not meant as a get rich scheme, it's meant to let kids in school that would rather just write code all summer and still pay their bills do so |
| 10:53.29 | brlcad | which is more than enough, as the rejection ratio is already nearly 5:1 iirc |
| 10:53.54 | Z80-Boy | who rejects? Google or the coders? |
| 10:54.16 | brlcad | both in a way |
| 10:54.26 | Z80-Boy | I rejected it because of underpaying :) |
| 10:54.29 | brlcad | there are only so many student slots, so they compete |
| 10:55.00 | brlcad | students are ranked on their abilities and project proposals |
| 10:55.17 | brlcad | it's a rather long and involved process, takes a lot of time |
| 10:55.41 | Z80-Boy | I found out people with zero abilities are indispensable |
| 10:56.37 | Z80-Boy | Like if I show my Ronja instructions to someone who has good abilities then he doesn't find anything |
| 10:56.51 | brlcad | good for you ... *blink* .. but if their job is to be coding all summer, zero abilities would be useless |
| 10:56.53 | Z80-Boy | If I show it to a guy who has no clue about it he finds 50 places with missing or ambiguous information |
| 10:57.20 | Z80-Boy | He's vastly mor productive for this task than the guy with abilities, because his abilities cannot bridge the gaps he's looking for. |
| 10:57.24 | brlcad | eh, that's entirely a different domain |
| 10:57.32 | brlcad | productive to you for weeding out trivialities |
| 10:57.36 | Z80-Boy | No that's a part of free software |
| 10:57.43 | brlcad | ask him to optimize your circuit board and you get a blank stare |
| 10:57.54 | Z80-Boy | A product without manual is useless and you need someone like this to check the manuals |
| 10:58.11 | brlcad | again, you're talking about an entirely different f'ing domain |
| 10:58.16 | brlcad | it's the summer of *code* |
| 10:58.24 | brlcad | not checking manuals and looking for typos |
| 10:58.34 | brlcad | the program has a specific focus |
| 10:58.37 | Z80-Boy | But I don't need anyone to code I need someone to weed crap out of the manuals |
| 10:58.49 | brlcad | you need a janitor, great |
| 10:59.06 | Z80-Boy | I don't like this division of people into "able" |
| 10:59.10 | Z80-Boy | and "unable" |
| 10:59.19 | Z80-Boy | Everyone can do something different. |
| 10:59.21 | brlcad | that's also pretty much a possessive position |
| 11:00.05 | brlcad | i'm sorry, but that's just wrong with the domain is limited |
| 11:00.15 | brlcad | if it's not limited, then sure .. there's a job for everyone |
| 11:00.16 | Z80-Boy | The ordinary people who have barely a clue how to solder two wires together contributed so many helpful ideas... |
| 11:00.17 | brlcad | that's nothing new |
| 11:01.09 | Z80-Boy | What's a perfectly coded program good for when the user has no idea how to use it? |
| 11:01.30 | brlcad | are you just not getting it or just talking past me without listening? |
| 11:01.41 | Z80-Boy | If I use a program it's typically 1/2 day reading the manuals and experimenting and 5 minutes CPU time |
| 11:01.50 | brlcad | i'm not arguing that people can contribute in various ways |
| 11:01.52 | brlcad | sure they can |
| 11:02.02 | brlcad | that's not freaking rocket science |
| 11:02.05 | brlcad | people can be creative |
| 11:02.11 | brlcad | and useful, in many ways |
| 11:02.15 | brlcad | that's not the point |
| 11:03.29 | brlcad | this started about finding people that were "able to code" because it's a program about actually writing code, not reviewing code, not helping out, not working on docs, just writing code -- for that purpose, there are outright some people that are able and are not able to write code |
| 11:03.51 | brlcad | not about whether people were able to do *something* useful |
| 11:04.11 | brlcad | they could do that anyways, it is open source afterall .. if they want to contribute, they can go for it |
| 11:04.12 | Z80-Boy | Hmm I consider reviewing code and working of docs part of writing the code |
| 11:04.26 | Z80-Boy | pushing buttons is only one method how to get the code you need |
| 11:04.35 | brlcad | but if they're going to get *hired* to write code .. there is a damn firm expectation that they can/will write code |
| 11:04.43 | Z80-Boy | Another one is take an existing one that does something wrong and fixing it |
| 11:05.11 | Z80-Boy | And if I don't write documentation at the same moment as the code I am begging the God for an inconsitency |
| 11:05.35 | Z80-Boy | Most people on free software projects cannot write code |
| 11:05.38 | brlcad | well you may consider it part of it, but I certainly wouldn't .. it's certainly part of working on a project and developing a product .. but then it sounds like you maybe just want to argue your semantics |
| 11:05.48 | Z80-Boy | They think bullshits like "the code is the documentation" which can be easily disproved. |
| 11:06.10 | Z80-Boy | They leave bugs in code intentionally... |
| 11:06.35 | Z80-Boy | It's like a difference between painter for pictures and painter for room walls |
| 11:06.40 | curious | lot of opensource projects are so far (imho) quick sketches of what project should look like. i.e. mozilla ... |
| 11:07.05 | Z80-Boy | yes Firefox segfaults and hangs for me and bugs in the bugzilla have numbers like 200,000 |
| 11:07.21 | Z80-Boy | At least BRL-CAD knows how to write code |
| 11:07.25 | Z80-Boy | When I report a bug they fix it |
| 11:07.35 | Z80-Boy | Not just piling up shit... |
| 11:07.53 | Z80-Boy | I reported a segfault on BBC Dirac a year ago and it still wasn't even assigned |
| 11:08.05 | Z80-Boy | And Dirac is developed fulltime by a major company! |
| 11:08.07 | curious | enthusiasm and demand of users is usually what causes trouble , too much pressure to suceed while there is still just loose sketch |
| 11:08.08 | brlcad | and lots of people like to armchair philosophize and argue about what is right/wrong without actually contributing constructively :) |
| 11:08.12 | brlcad | so fix it yourself? |
| 11:08.27 | brlcad | usually just time and competing priorities |
| 11:08.28 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: you mean me? With Ronja and Links? |
| 11:08.35 | brlcad | no, I mean in general |
| 11:08.44 | brlcad | I've seen it on every project I've ever worked on/with |
| 11:09.11 | brlcad | you've had some good constructive contributions |
| 11:09.17 | Z80-Boy | If you're a good developer and you have a lack of time you create a well working program with small amount of features |
| 11:09.18 | brlcad | several as a matter of fact |
| 11:09.48 | Z80-Boy | If you are a bad one, you create a bloated project with tons of bugs which is practicably unusable, but has a lot of features in it's spec. |
| 11:10.17 | Z80-Boy | Oh these details count as contributions? :) |
| 11:11.01 | brlcad | the movie is marketing material, the bug reports get attention and discussion, and are queued/recorded and/or fixed |
| 11:11.44 | brlcad | if anything, you're a productive and interactive/responsive user, and that's a contribution no matter how you cut it |
| 11:11.56 | brlcad | doesn't have to be code |
| 11:13.16 | brlcad | that said, coders is what we're most in shortage of because we haven't yet gained enough momentum and usability |
| 11:13.21 | alex_joni | reports of people using projects are a great help to any oss imo |
| 11:13.42 | brlcad | we're in one of the biggest software domains, bigger than the gaming industry for crissakes |
| 11:14.02 | alex_joni | first it shows others that it's useable, what can be done with it, and second it gives devs the needed momentum to keep going |
| 11:14.06 | brlcad | yet our active devs are but a handful |
| 11:14.17 | brlcad | multibillion dollar industry |
| 11:14.20 | alex_joni | brlcad: and still.. you're a big project.. compared to the one I work on |
| 11:14.56 | brlcad | i mean one of our main competitors (in theory at least) is unigraphics, where they have more than 100 developers working on their code daily |
| 11:15.53 | brlcad | alex_joni: the momentum is in attracting new devs (and users, but devs most importantly) |
| 11:16.25 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: do you agree that BRL-CAD is lacking important features compared to Autocad, Pro-E and whatever modern modeling programs? |
| 11:16.53 | brlcad | blender picked up the momentum about five years ago in just under two years after going open source, for example .. not exactly the same domain, but similar skill sets needed, but then they already had usability |
| 11:17.11 | brlcad | Z80-Boy: sure, I don't think anyone would argue that |
| 11:17.42 | brlcad | we excel in several areas, but to compete in the holistic CAD domain, you have to cater to many many different usage patterns and problem domains |
| 11:18.01 | brlcad | the industry diagram on the main website gives an idea of those domains/uses |
| 11:19.11 | brlcad | our path forward is pretty clear (to me at least), but there's a lot of work before the momentum will start to accelerate attention |
| 11:19.38 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: on the other hand, a project like Ronja shows that with and oldschool approach (doing the blueprints separately), one can use BRL-CAD for serious work. |
| 11:19.59 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: I wrote you something on query did you see it? |
| 11:20.33 | brlcad | needed for that is a unification of all our command-line tools, clean-up of our geometry processing engine, the addition of comprehensive BREP support, and a redesigned graphical user interface that leverages all our functionality intuitively |
| 11:20.53 | brlcad | Z80-Boy: BRL-CAD *IS* used for serious work, and has been for decades .... |
| 11:21.03 | brlcad | doesn't get much more serious |
| 11:21.34 | curious | Z80-Boy, sometimes for development of project user base is important. links can be good example, note that i.e. mobile phone /pda industry didn't noticed potential of investiment in developing potent multiplatform code for web browser and invest in taking parts of mozilla foundation code instead |
| 11:21.39 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: but isn't it an internal army work that isn't visible to the outside? |
| 11:21.51 | brlcad | the analysis domain is our strength by far, that is where we kick the snot out of most of the commercial packages |
| 11:22.10 | Z80-Boy | curious: but they at least get CSS Javascript Flash and Java and all that annoying crap |
| 11:22.37 | Z80-Boy | can you give an example of a project that uses BRL-CAD for analysis? |
| 11:22.38 | curious | yes, and social impact of this will cause phones to overheat for next 20 years |
| 11:22.43 | brlcad | our ability to efficiently represent, visualize, and analyze geometric target descriptions is pretty much unparalleled |
| 11:22.50 | Z80-Boy | Apart from Ronja where it's used to calculate the weight of the device and the components? |
| 11:23.32 | curious | btw. i also would like to see more examples of use on main website, manual is bit minimalistic |
| 11:23.43 | Z80-Boy | curious: Links cannot keep up the development pace with the tsunami of bloated crapware like AJAX etc. |
| 11:24.09 | brlcad | BRL-CAD main reason for being created, developed, and funded for so long is for analysis purposes |
| 11:24.15 | curious | Z80-Boy, ...because noone invested in it :) as opensource project it could be developed by completely separate team |
| 11:24.31 | Z80-Boy | curious: that's not true noone invested in it |
| 11:24.55 | Z80-Boy | curious: http://links.twibright.com/development.php |
| 11:25.08 | Z80-Boy | You have a table of donations there :) |
| 11:25.10 | brlcad | it's used for performing ballistic penetration and material interaction analyses |
| 11:25.21 | brlcad | like what happens when you shoot a rocket propelled grenade at a tank |
| 11:25.34 | Z80-Boy | yes but these projects are kept closed, right? |
| 11:25.37 | brlcad | vulnerability and lethality analyses |
| 11:25.43 | brlcad | of course |
| 11:25.47 | Z80-Boy | I haven't myself seen anything like that |
| 11:25.54 | brlcad | and you probably never will |
| 11:25.56 | Z80-Boy | So the public may and may not believe it |
| 11:26.18 | Z80-Boy | I'm not interested to know what happens if you throw a grenade at a tank |
| 11:26.25 | Z80-Boy | I don't have neither a grenade nor a tank |
| 11:26.34 | brlcad | it's well documented and published, just not something you get to play with directly |
| 11:26.49 | curious | personally i would like to see few examples about developing electric motors |
| 11:26.53 | Z80-Boy | But people need to see a plausible proof it's practically usable |
| 11:27.17 | brlcad | you might be interested what happens if you were to get shot by a bullet, not really much different |
| 11:27.35 | curious | i've read there is support for magnetic forces simulation, yet, didn't found even simplest examples |
| 11:27.46 | Z80-Boy | Otherwise they may think "maybe the picture is a fake made in a different program" or "armies are often inefficient maybe it took them too long" |
| 11:28.06 | brlcad | material interactions, almost any interaction that has a nearly instant interaction/response (less than a second) |
| 11:28.31 | Z80-Boy | what happens if my head hits a skatepark obstacle? :D |
| 11:28.53 | brlcad | you may think that, but the people that fund the results certainly don't think so |
| 11:29.12 | brlcad | it's not like this hasn't been going on for decades |
| 11:29.20 | brlcad | long before computers were used |
| 11:30.13 | brlcad | BRL-CAD was the first to make it even possible to visualize an entire tank on a computer (back in '84) |
| 11:32.28 | brlcad | svn dumpfile now finished uploading to sf.net, importing (eta probably 2hrs) |
| 11:35.49 | curious | brlcad, and what about more hum. peace-oriented projects? design of dams , windmills, stuff like that? :) i know brl-cad has main funding source from military... but maybe there were projects more in such direction? |
| 11:36.25 | brlcad | lots |
| 11:36.47 | brlcad | helped design one of the massive supercolliders in europe |
| 11:37.13 | brlcad | was the only cad system that could represent the entire length down to millimeter resolution |
| 11:37.48 | brlcad | hubble telescope, buildings, radiological studies, ... |
| 11:38.59 | curious | perhaps i'll sound bit like eco freak but i'm often grossed when i hear from investors that investiments like windmill research are 'not profitable because never earn for themselves' and then i see them buying f16 for taxpayer's money ...(well, guess how theywill make it 'earn on itself ' ;) |
| 11:39.32 | curious | good to hear :) |
| 11:45.41 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: but can you link URLs where it's apparent how BRL-CAD was used for these projects? |
| 11:46.28 | Z80-Boy | brlcad: did you get my query? |
| 11:48.25 | curious | Z80-Boy, btw. would you mind to record how you develop things in brl-cad ? in form of tutorial/example presentation... i am very newb. in this |
| 11:48.52 | Z80-Boy | curious: sorry, no time for that |
| 11:56.27 | alex_joni | brlcad: shoot the ronja thingie with a grenade rocket.. we all can guess what happens, but it'll look cool |
| 11:58.08 | Z80-Boy | I think it may drop one packet |
| 11:58.17 | Z80-Boy | and then continue working unharmed |
| 11:58.23 | Z80-Boy | Maybe the paint peels off |
| 11:58.52 | Z80-Boy | someone reported it working when the pipe was 1/2 full of water |
| 11:59.02 | Z80-Boy | With the electronics massively corroded and full of disgusting slime |
| 11:59.07 | Z80-Boy | Ronja is a very robust device :) |
| 12:01.09 | alex_joni | Z80-Boy: :P good to know |
| 12:01.33 | alex_joni | Z80-Boy: maybe you can sell Ronja's to the military for target practise purpose :P |
| 14:01.38 | Z80-Boy | Once it got a nearby lightning hit and I had to replace a part for $1.00 |
| 14:03.13 | Z80-Boy | But there was a bug in the shielding which I fixed in the meantime |
| 14:04.02 | Z80-Boy | Not mentioning that every lightning storm we had several network card and switches burned out |
| 14:04.28 | alex_joni | I had ones burning out even without lightning :D |
| 14:04.43 | Z80-Boy | I am sure instead of the expensive thick cables |
| 14:04.43 | Z80-Boy | they could transmit the data from nuclear tests by Ronjas |
| 14:05.25 | Z80-Boy | They would simply collect them scattered on the desert, wash and reuse :) |
| 14:28.57 | Z80-Boy | I got an idea for an undetectable detector of people's presence |
| 14:29.41 | Z80-Boy | a microphone and two speakers |
| 14:29.54 | Z80-Boy | the speakers would be at one end of the controlled line and the microphone on the other |
| 14:30.07 | Z80-Boy | the speakers would be arranged symmetrically and phased oppositely |
| 14:30.18 | Z80-Boy | so that any signal going into them would cancel out at the place of microphone |
| 14:30.35 | Z80-Boy | the microphone would have a sensitive amplifier outputting into the speakers |
| 14:31.05 | Z80-Boy | if something physical got into the space, one of the speakers would be shadowed more, they would stop cancelling and the system would start to oscillate |
| 14:31.34 | Z80-Boy | No electrical optical infrared or acoustical energy measurement would reveal existence of this device unless the alarm would be already triggered. |
| 14:32.51 | Z80-Boy | Because in silent state the device would be silent |
| 15:04.49 | *** join/#brlcad prasad_ (n=psilva@70.108.244.218) |
| 15:06.53 | *** join/#brlcad vedge (i=vedge@vedge.org) |
| 15:08.32 | alex_joni | I don't think you can cancel out 2 sound waves |
| 15:09.12 | alex_joni | maybe in a perfect environment (without walls and other refraction points..) |
| 15:21.11 | ``Erik | huh, rpg vs ronja? I wonder if it'd just vaporize the entire unit, or send it flying as a cone of sand... :) |
| 15:22.12 | curious | it's not made in taiwan, sorry. |
| 15:22.50 | Z80-Boy | nor in china ;-) |
| 15:23.26 | ``Erik | heh, doens't matter where it's made, I'm sure it's using soft steel and not much of it compared to, say, heavy vehicle armor plating that rpg's are specifically designed to defeat :) |
| 15:23.37 | Z80-Boy | One friend replaced the thin tin pipe (0.5mm) with a solid metal pipe like 5 or 6mm thick |
| 15:24.16 | ``Erik | ok, put a kg of c4 against a 5mm walled steel pipe and see how well it holds together.. :D |
| 15:24.53 | Z80-Boy | http://images.twibright.com/tns/lvl4/1e4a.jpg |
| 15:25.02 | ``Erik | <-- puts his money on the explosives :) |
| 15:25.05 | Z80-Boy | whole gakllery page http://images.twibright.com/tns/1e45.html |
| 15:25.28 | alex_joni | Z80-Boy: that looks soft |
| 15:25.33 | Z80-Boy | Men, if the 3rd world war comes, he'll still have Internet |
| 15:26.02 | ``Erik | what kinda steel? |
| 15:26.08 | alex_joni | well.. maybe usually is not the best thing to say |
| 15:26.10 | Z80-Boy | Ordinary construction |
| 15:26.24 | alex_joni | ``Erik: you familiar with EN namings? |
| 15:26.26 | Z80-Boy | alex_joni: you mean the gym? |
| 15:26.34 | ``Erik | not especially, but I have tables |
| 15:26.48 | Z80-Boy | I saw his Ronja it was heavy as hell |
| 15:27.00 | Z80-Boy | The RPG would probably shatter the lens |
| 15:27.10 | Z80-Boy | So you'd have to invest $1.00 to fix the device |
| 15:27.17 | alex_joni | S235 .. S5xx |
| 15:27.51 | alex_joni | ``Erik: mostly construction grade steel |
| 15:27.54 | alex_joni | nothing fancy |
| 15:27.55 | Z80-Boy | But look |
| 15:28.06 | Z80-Boy | noone will shoot rpgs at your communication device |
| 15:28.23 | Z80-Boy | more like you'll see one more sun, then you get a gust of wind where all the windows blow out |
| 15:28.36 | alex_joni | still. it will be the first target |
| 15:28.42 | ``Erik | if one goes off within a few meters, it'll probably rip apart the steel tube, shatter the lense, disintigrate the board, ... :) |
| 15:29.06 | ``Erik | and that's a light precision weapon, something like a bomb (or ww3, mebbe a nuke)... :D |
| 15:29.58 | Z80-Boy | that's a damage worth of say 30$? |
| 15:30.55 | ``Erik | yeah *shrug* but it's not gonna just drop one package and get a little water in it |
| 15:31.04 | ``Erik | :) |
| 15:31.17 | Z80-Boy | try the RPG with your wireless access point |
| 15:31.30 | ``Erik | sorry, I kinda like having a house :) |
| 15:31.52 | Z80-Boy | I don't believe it makes a mess like this |
| 15:32.09 | ``Erik | I tend to avoid silly things like bullets and hand grenades, no way I wanna be in an anti-armor event, yo |
| 15:32.55 | ``Erik | dude, an rpg is several kg of high explosives |
| 15:33.26 | ``Erik | I mean, take a dozen sticks of dynamite and light it off on something |
| 15:33.31 | ``Erik | it makes a big freakin' mess |
| 15:34.29 | alex_joni | that means no windows for a 2-3 mile radius |
| 15:34.29 | Z80-Boy | that's bullshit |
| 15:34.29 | Z80-Boy | At the place I live a dynamite factory blew up in 190? |
| 15:34.38 | Z80-Boy | It shattered the windows only in 10km radius or so |
| 15:34.55 | Z80-Boy | I assume they have more than couple of dynamite sticks in a factory |
| 15:35.23 | ``Erik | shockswaves roll off on a cubed root (surface area of a growing sphere, remember your high school physics for sound attenuation) |
| 15:35.44 | Z80-Boy | not cubed but 2nd root |
| 15:35.44 | ``Erik | and a lot depends on environment (temperature, humidity, geometry, etc) |
| 15:36.05 | Z80-Boy | surface area of a growing sphere is r^2 |
| 15:36.40 | alex_joni | The PRG-7V1 can fire 4 - 6 rounds per minute, and can be equipped with PG-7V shaped charge, PG-7VR tandem shaped charge, both are designed to penetrate over 500 mm of steel (600 mm behind ERA in PG-7VR, which can also penetrate two meters of brickwork, 1.5 meters of reinforced concrete and 3.7 meters of log or sand). |
| 15:37.24 | Z80-Boy | Doesn't this have a depleted uranium rod? |
| 15:37.28 | ``Erik | no |
| 15:37.31 | Z80-Boy | rha is what? |
| 15:37.50 | Z80-Boy | But we were talkling about RPG not PRG |
| 15:37.59 | ``Erik | a standard armor type of steel, rolled homogeneous |
| 15:38.11 | ``Erik | "rpg" is an old name for a shaped charge |
| 15:38.20 | Z80-Boy | rocket propelled grenade? |
| 15:38.41 | ``Erik | they're shaped charges, every since the paunserfaust |
| 15:38.42 | Z80-Boy | Doesn't shaped charge work only on the surface of the target? |
| 15:38.42 | alex_joni | http://www.defense-update.com/products/r/rpg-29.htm |
| 15:38.57 | Z80-Boy | panzerfaust |
| 15:39.35 | alex_joni | Z80-Boy: they also have time delays so they can explode in mid air |
| 15:39.37 | ``Erik | yeah, panzerfaust, and the bazooka, and a couple other ww2 anti-tank handhelds |
| 15:43.11 | Z80-Boy | Well no matter how thick Ronja is it always needs a lens surface exposed outside |
| 15:43.28 | Z80-Boy | Which is easily damaged by a weapon |
| 15:43.33 | Z80-Boy | And needs to be replaced then |
| 15:44.02 | Z80-Boy | Have you seen a guy making his own electron valves at home? |
| 15:44.08 | ``Erik | yeah, in france |
| 15:44.10 | ``Erik | neat stuff |
| 15:44.10 | Z80-Boy | I think this guy will surview WW3 too |
| 15:44.19 | Z80-Boy | survive |
| 15:44.34 | ``Erik | um, blowing glass ain't gonna help ya survive ww3, it'll help you survive AFTER ww3.... :D |
| 15:46.41 | Z80-Boy | Are there vehicles resistant to RPGs? |
| 15:46.55 | ``Erik | that all depends on what you mean by "resistant" |
| 15:47.05 | ``Erik | and that's all I'm gonna say about that :D |
| 15:47.09 | Z80-Boy | Apart from the Russian "Ukraina" bicycle? |
| 16:06.12 | *** join/#brlcad jgay (n=jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) |
| 16:38.38 | brlcad | looks like the import was successful, starting testing |
| 17:58.43 | ``Erik | http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080109/od_nm/brothel_dc;_ylt=AkOfikAfGaTZ2oPrvqqBjwGs0NUE |
| 18:46.49 | *** join/#brlcad yukonbob (n=yukonbob@S010600195bd5c415.lb.shawcable.net) |
| 19:02.47 | brlcad | heh |
| 19:10.52 | IriX64 | coulda been worse, coulda been his mother :) |
| 19:20.42 | brlcad | so far so good on the checkout validation, it's gotten past all branches afaikt |
| 19:20.46 | brlcad | now working on all tags |
| 19:45.02 | poolio | so, upgrade to git next week? |
| 19:45.29 | ``Erik | git is for gits |
| 19:45.35 | ``Erik | we're going to perforce, yo |
| 19:45.40 | poolio | ah |
| 19:45.41 | ``Erik | p4ftw! |
| 19:45.48 | poolio | hg! |
| 19:52.36 | *** join/#brlcad Z80-Boy (i=clock@77-56-82-187.dclient.hispeed.ch) |
| 20:07.13 | ``Erik | hummmmm |
| 20:07.34 | poolio | ``Erik: Tell me if it's safe :) |
| 20:07.51 | ``Erik | how is this going to affect file permissions? |
| 20:08.12 | ``Erik | the adrt subdir had significan damage (many 755 .c and .h files) |
| 20:08.45 | ``Erik | ben, I'm waiting for brlcad to tell me it's safe, I'm just being optimistic ;) |
| 20:14.41 | poolio | hah |
| 20:15.15 | poolio | Do the permissions really matter in the source tree? As long as the install is correct it shouldn't really matter |
| 20:15.55 | ``Erik | it's fugly when ya have alias ls='ls -FG' |
| 20:32.55 | *** join/#brlcad illethal (n=oden@c-69-137-199-63.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 20:33.08 | illethal | Axman! |
| 20:33.18 | illethal | Battletech? |
| 20:35.35 | *** part/#brlcad illethal (n=oden@c-69-137-199-63.hsd1.fl.comcast.net) |
| 20:56.06 | brlcad | ``Erik: my full-checkout is still churning, it's not exactly speedy process |
| 20:56.23 | brlcad | i've been documenting the steps taken as well just for posterity |
| 20:58.31 | brlcad | svn keeps track of the exec bit as an svn attribute |
| 20:59.54 | brlcad | the cvs import set the svn attribute if the cvsroot file had the exec bit set, which I see now that you mention it that several libtie, libtienet, and a couple of the adrt docs had bad perms (meaning they were cvs added with wrong perms, but whatever) |
| 21:00.39 | brlcad | it's easy enough to fix that in svn after the fact, but adrt seems to be more the exception than the rule as I look through other places .. not even most of adrt was wrong |
| 21:01.26 | brlcad | it is nice, though, that all the scripts have the property set, I did validate those, archer, rtwizard, and a few others manually to make sure their perms were right |
| 21:05.05 | brlcad | probably not worth the 8+ hour turn-around to fix those perms in the cvs repo and wait for all the conversions/uploads again just for those few files.. :) |
| 21:23.33 | brlcad | it's 17GB to checkout the root |
| 21:23.33 | ``Erik | if it's fixable in svn, that's another minor win for snv over cvs |
| 21:23.40 | brlcad | it is |
| 21:23.57 | brlcad | i think we might be good to go, lemme just make sure the commit hooks are set up |
| 21:23.58 | ``Erik | it's tricky to fix in cvs |
| 21:24.20 | brlcad | it'll be svn propdel svn:executable file.c |
| 21:24.30 | brlcad | svn proplist to see the props on a file |
| 21:24.55 | brlcad | properties are tracked just like source changes |
| 21:25.57 | brlcad | that's how you can set the line ending types (CR/NL, NL, native, etc), whether it's a binary file or not (default is binary, but I set auto-props on defined file types) |
| 21:26.13 | brlcad | and the exec bit |
| 21:26.22 | ``Erik | coo' |
| 21:26.38 | brlcad | those three and setting svn:ignore on directories (the equiv of .cvsignore) are the most common usages of props |
| 21:27.37 | brlcad | for info: http://my.brlcad.org/wiki/Cvs2svn |
| 21:33.01 | poolio | Heh, exactly one commit with non-ascii. Beat 'em down. |
| 21:39.15 | brlcad | heh |
| 21:39.25 | brlcad | i actually did that commit :) |
| 21:39.47 | brlcad | knew exactly what it was when I saw the log message |
| 21:40.10 | CIA-30 | ow |
| 21:42.32 | brlcad | ahh, we're getting announced as the wrong project |
| 21:45.13 | CIA-30 | BRL-CAD: 03brlcad * r29889 10/brlcad/trunk/NEWS: cia test commit, note that I just converted source repository from CVS to Subversion |
| 21:45.17 | brlcad | there we go |
| 21:46.09 | brlcad | ``Erik: barring any problems that you find or that crop up on our ohloh import, I think we might be good to go now |
| 21:46.58 | yukonbob | nice... |
| 21:47.00 | brlcad | cvs2svn apparently got confused a little on the props with both a mime.types file, auto-props files, and props from mime setting enabled, but those are easily fixed |
| 21:53.41 | Axman6 | brlcad: well done :) |
| 21:56.19 | brlcad | not necessarily done yet |
| 21:56.32 | brlcad | still a lot more validation to go, and I'm seeing issues |
| 21:57.53 | yukonbob | brlcad: are you saying to stay away from the svn repo for now, and I guess when it's deemed ready, you'll post a mgs here, or somewhere? |
| 22:01.13 | brlcad | i'm saying don't assume it won't get replaced yet another time if a show-stopper is found in the next couple days :) |
| 22:02.10 | brlcad | the mime.types file messed up a lot of things it seems (like our tcl files) since apache's mime type for .tcl files is application/x-tcl for example .. which makes svn think it's a binary file |
| 22:02.25 | brlcad | I can fix that easily enough, but I can't diff through the history with it like that |
| 22:02.37 | brlcad | that might be a show-stopper |
| 22:03.44 | brlcad | might have to create a custom mime.types so that we get the settings we want in the repo as opposed to what apache might want to present |
| 22:26.32 | brlcad | i'm not finding a good solution.. I think we'll have to have yet another go-round |
| 22:45.00 | *** join/#brlcad elite01_ (n=elite01@dslc-082-082-087-063.pools.arcor-ip.net) |
| 22:52.16 | yukonbob | brlcad: not clear about the mime issue -- I see what problem it presents, and think I understand how it works (as an svn property) -- so what's the 'diff through the history' issue? Is it feasible to get a script w/ svn bindings to go through the tree, present possible issues (ie: list all .tcl files), and optionally/conditionally adjust properties? |
| 23:18.26 | brlcad | yukonbob: I can set the property from then on and get diffs afaikt, but then if I say "diff r123 to r12" where it was unmarked as binary after r100 then it'll fail |
| 23:18.45 | yukonbob | ugh |
| 23:19.01 | brlcad | i'm running it through again without the mime.types file from apache |
| 23:19.27 | brlcad | and with extra mime types set for our predominant file types |
| 23:21.31 | brlcad | might make the default text instead of binary too if I add a mapping for all of our file types |
| 23:42.41 | brlcad | heh, there are 255 extensions in use |
| 23:43.11 | yukonbob | brlcad: in the BRL-CAD source tree? |
| 23:44.02 | brlcad | well, in the whole cvsroot, but yeah, that's 99.9% brl-cad sources |
| 23:44.46 | brlcad | http://bzflag.bz/~sean/extensions.used |
| 23:45.07 | yukonbob | right -- I guess you're counting the 0.1% as the libs, tcl, etc that are 3rd party, supplied for completeness' sake |
| 23:46.19 | brlcad | at least it's tangible |
| 23:46.47 | brlcad | i can make sure there are reasonable mime-types for any that aren't already listed |
| 23:46.59 | yukonbob | most of those are of 'text' format, though -- so can one get away w/ setting default as text (like you mentioned) and only tagging .jpg, .doc, etc for now |
| 23:47.18 | yukonbob | s/tagging/tagging for attributes/ |
| 23:47.27 | brlcad | yeah, something like that |
| 23:48.20 | yukonbob | nice... and nice to run into a problem, know what the answer is, and solve it ;) -- must seem tedious to you at this point, but at least you're making headway :) |
| 23:49.40 | brlcad | mime types have always been a nit-pick annoyance i've had with svn |
| 23:49.49 | brlcad | it's good to finally get right, but it's such a pita |
| 23:56.58 | *** join/#brlcad Twingy (n=justin@74.92.144.217) |
