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| 06:45.53 | *** topic/#arm-netbook is EOMA: Embedded Open Modular Architecture - Don't ask to ask. Just ask! - http://elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture/EOMA-68 - ML arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk - Logs http://ibot.rikers.org/%23arm-netbook or http://irclog.whitequark.org/arm-netbook/ - http://rhombus-tech.net/ |
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| 09:14.34 | libv | rpi is not about being open. |
| 09:14.44 | libv | the whole broadcom videocore design prohibits that |
| 09:15.21 | libv | but the rpi foundation is busy trying to tell us the exact opposite |
| 09:16.13 | hramrach | long discussion |
| 09:17.32 | hramrach | lawrence: there are also some boards with LVDS |
| 09:17.53 | lawrence | yes, i'm aware |
| 09:18.02 | hramrach | but they are very few so maybe targetting those with lapdock is not that great idea |
| 09:18.05 | lawrence | the cheaper new panels are all going eDP though |
| 09:18.26 | lawrence | so thats why i'm dumping lvds as an input |
| 09:18.26 | hramrach | are they? |
| 09:18.35 | lawrence | why, yes, they are :_ |
| 09:18.38 | lawrence | :) even |
| 09:18.46 | hramrach | LVDS is going to be around for a while for spare parts |
| 09:18.54 | lawrence | sure |
| 09:18.55 | hramrach | and that's what current boards have |
| 09:19.12 | lawrence | lvds is too low level really |
| 09:19.21 | lawrence | you need to compile up appropriate drivers etc |
| 09:19.26 | lawrence | you need to wire it correctly |
| 09:19.41 | hramrach | hmm |
| 09:19.44 | lawrence | end user is probably going to have hdmi or dp or vga |
| 09:20.11 | hramrach | maybe optional LVDS->eDP or HDMI->eDP subboards |
| 09:20.12 | lawrence | so i think DP actually makes sense |
| 09:20.20 | lawrence | as that |
| 09:20.28 | lawrence | hdmi -> dp is 2.50$ |
| 09:20.32 | lawrence | in cable terms |
| 09:20.36 | hramrach | yes, DP is pushed a lot |
| 09:20.38 | lawrence | and eDP is basically DP |
| 09:20.46 | hramrach | if the cable works |
| 09:20.47 | lawrence | + power lines |
| 09:20.52 | lawrence | so its pretty easy to implement |
| 09:20.55 | lawrence | sure it will work |
| 09:21.06 | hramrach | if you do your own it will |
| 09:21.13 | hramrach | seen overheating cables |
| 09:21.14 | lawrence | the problems people may see before are due to limits in hdmi |
| 09:21.33 | lawrence | NXP has some good sample product |
| 09:21.36 | hramrach | or acting like they overheat - stop working after a while, working after some rest again |
| 09:21.50 | lawrence | and if you use DP, crapload less emi to worry about as an issue |
| 09:22.42 | hramrach | I get emi from writing to mmc :s |
| 09:22.46 | lawrence | as less lines |
| 09:23.02 | lawrence | although doing audio is possibly an issue |
| 09:23.19 | lawrence | as i haven't looked deeply at chipsets as to support for hdmi audio passthrough |
| 09:23.29 | hramrach | the panel does not have audio anyway |
| 09:23.47 | lawrence | they wanted it |
| 09:23.47 | hramrach | so need to figure out some audio solution |
| 09:23.52 | lawrence | so i was adding it |
| 09:24.03 | lawrence | as driver + speakers is < 2$ to add |
| 09:24.04 | hramrach | you want audion on lapdock, yes |
| 09:24.10 | lawrence | and its a no brainer |
| 09:24.40 | hramrach | but to make it generic it should support HDMI audio because it' only interface on a stick |
| 09:24.51 | hramrach | or add USB sound soultion |
| 09:25.07 | lawrence | easiest is the obvious analog audio in |
| 09:25.16 | lawrence | but if hdmi does audio, why not try to use it |
| 09:25.30 | hramrach | if there is chip for it, sure |
| 09:25.48 | hramrach | the analog audio is not that great |
| 09:25.54 | hramrach | 1) not all boards have |
| 09:25.57 | hramrach | 2) emi |
| 09:27.20 | lawrence | dp doesn't need lcd driver to implement |
| 09:27.33 | lawrence | (lcd driver board chip) |
| 09:27.34 | hramrach | USB audio chips are definitely available because htere are chepish speakers basedon them |
| 09:27.52 | lawrence | i can source zillions of those, not a worry |
| 09:28.06 | lawrence | i have appromiately 100 sitting under my desk at the moment in fact |
| 09:28.46 | lawrence | for X -> DP |
| 09:28.49 | lawrence | take a look here |
| 09:29.05 | lawrence | http://dl.cubieforums.com/LapdockMaterials/NXP-DP.pdf |
| 09:29.24 | lawrence | thats material from NXP regarding their chipset options for conversion |
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| 09:29.39 | lawrence | CHRONTEL has similar chips also (and are cheaper) |
| 09:29.54 | lawrence | its mass produced now though, so not too hard to do |
| 09:30.20 | lawrence | i'd probably try to offer both inputs on the board |
| 09:30.26 | lawrence | eg dp, hdmi |
| 09:30.40 | lawrence | and maybe even USB as there are some cheap chipsets for doing video over USB |
| 09:31.11 | lawrence | but i'm still bouncing thoughts around with people |
| 09:31.29 | lawrence | we looked at some panels earlier |
| 09:31.47 | lawrence | and I can get 11" HD panels for in the 400rmb range |
| 09:31.52 | lawrence | with eDP |
| 09:31.58 | lawrence | hence the thought to use that over LVDS |
| 09:32.51 | lawrence | LVDS would need a driver board - did look at that option too earlier. eg RTD2662 or similar to drive an LVDS panel, and take HDMI input |
| 09:35.12 | hramrach | the NXP chips seem to be the wrong way |
| 09:35.18 | hramrach | DP->HDMI |
| 09:35.33 | hramrach | but I am sure somebody makes the other way |
| 09:36.28 | hramrach | lawrence: if you make it with HD panel it differs itself from the existing lapdock |
| 09:36.31 | lawrence | well, if boards are eDP input, for sure |
| 09:36.32 | hramrach | so maybe good thing |
| 09:36.51 | lawrence | it was early am for me (3am onward) |
| 09:36.58 | lawrence | so i may have overlooked stuff ;) |
| 09:37.28 | hramrach | what is the problem with tablet+optional keyboard? |
| 09:37.40 | lawrence | there isn't imho |
| 09:37.49 | hramrach | I find that this is the way to go in general |
| 09:37.51 | lawrence | but they were looking for a cpu'less idea |
| 09:38.03 | lawrence | so a battery powered display is what i would tend to |
| 09:38.08 | hramrach | but some people seem to be opposed to that |
| 09:38.10 | lawrence | that you can plug X into |
| 09:38.42 | hramrach | yeah but displayonly+keyboard optional vs clamshell |
| 09:38.50 | lawrence | i prefer optional |
| 09:39.01 | lawrence | and gave some solutions for good hookup for keyboard with that |
| 09:39.10 | lawrence | talk is cheap though |
| 09:39.22 | lawrence | i like to do. |
| 09:39.52 | lawrence | i might mockup sometime if i get time in the next month or two |
| 09:40.00 | lawrence | in the portable screen idea mindset |
| 09:40.23 | hramrach | the optional keyboard makes for challenging hardware/mechanicla design |
| 09:41.00 | hramrach | clamshell just works. you put all batteries in the bottom and it never shakes nor topples |
| 09:41.25 | lawrence | are you after a netbook or a modular item though |
| 09:41.32 | hramrach | with keyboard removable you have some tradeoffs wrt mechanical reliability and stability |
| 09:41.51 | hramrach | I don't really care much tbh |
| 09:42.20 | hramrach | just pointing yout that making the removable keyboard relly work might be challenging |
| 09:42.31 | jammi | imo, a keyboard should be replaceable |
| 09:42.47 | hramrach | replaceable and removable is different thing |
| 09:43.00 | jammi | not just for cleaning etc, but there are many different mechanical keyboard layouts around the world |
| 09:43.04 | hramrach | laptops do have replaceable keyboard but nmot removable |
| 09:43.29 | jammi | most of the world uses the iso layout, but americans use the ansi and japanese (maybe chinese too) use the kanji stuff with additional keys |
| 09:43.50 | hramrach | I use ANSI |
| 09:43.57 | lawrence | chinese use ansi layout |
| 09:44.02 | jammi | hramrach: many do have the topcase design so that they don't accomodate other mechanical layouts |
| 09:44.05 | lawrence | nothing special |
| 09:44.21 | hramrach | jammi: topcase? |
| 09:44.32 | lawrence | i have to go walk my dog before his bladder explodes |
| 09:44.44 | hramrach | would be a mess |
| 09:44.49 | jammi | yes. bottomcase is the part resting against the table/lap. topcase has keyboard and trackpad |
| 09:44.57 | jammi | and the lid has the screen |
| 09:45.20 | hramrach | and what were you trying to say? |
| 09:46.18 | jammi | I'm saying many topcases have cut out key-holes, so a iso layout doesn't fit the same case as an ansi layout or kanji layout |
| 09:47.23 | hramrach | in desktop keyboards the cutout for either layout is rectangle |
| 09:47.40 | jammi | it depends there too |
| 09:47.58 | hramrach | if some manufacturers overoptimize the cutouts this way better to avoid their products |
| 09:48.06 | jammi | some are just rectangles, but many are per layout |
| 09:48.48 | hramrach | the difference is placement of \ backspace and enter really |
| 09:49.12 | jammi | and left shift, and a missing key on ansi |
| 09:49.14 | hramrach | but when they start wrapping rows on small laptop keyboards it may get hairy |
| 09:49.43 | hramrach | yes, ansi does not have the extra key next to left shift |
| 09:50.05 | hramrach | but that key is rather late addition |
| 09:50.44 | jammi | yes, late as in 1960's or 1970's |
| 09:51.19 | jammi | or something like that, when electrical typewriters became common. the mechanical ones didn't have well standardized layouts before that |
| 09:52.45 | hramrach | I don't think there were many keyborads with that key around before like 2000 |
| 09:53.12 | hramrach | but maybe just nobody bothered with ISO layout |
| 09:53.25 | jammi | lol, sure they were. the actual standard was set in early 1980's, but there were keyboards based on the same principles long before that |
| 09:54.15 | hramrach | the thing is neither would have correct labels for obscure languages |
| 09:54.44 | hramrach | and when you ahve to pick from the wrong languages the US is probably cheapest |
| 09:54.55 | jammi | why cares about labels? the thing is that there are missing symbols with a missing key |
| 09:55.26 | hramrach | that key has duplicate symbols only in English layout |
| 09:55.39 | jammi | for instance, in the northern european layouts, without the extra key, it's impossible to type < and > |
| 09:55.51 | jammi | which are pretty common characters nowadays |
| 09:56.26 | hramrach | nowadays yes |
| 09:56.46 | jammi | and alternatively, if the key left to shift is removed in favour of it, § and ° become impossible |
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| 09:57.06 | jammi | and everyone would be hitting \ instead of return |
| 09:57.24 | jammi | and return instead of ' or * |
| 09:57.52 | jammi | sorry, ' or * instead of return, which is the key that makes \ on US layouts |
| 09:58.00 | hramrach | no, with that ISO layout everyone would be hitting return instread of \ |
| 09:58.19 | hramrach | and \ instead of backspace |
| 09:58.42 | jammi | no, that's the point. the ansi layout wouldn't be suitable for europe |
| 09:58.58 | jammi | and iso layout wouldn't be suitable for usa |
| 09:59.17 | jammi | and neither would be suitable in japan |
| 09:59.57 | hramrach | hehe |
| 10:00.20 | hramrach | kana switch and zenkan key and whatnot |
| 10:00.32 | hramrach | how many keys do they even have? |
| 10:00.58 | jammi | at least two additional keys |
| 10:01.13 | hramrach | more |
| 10:02.03 | jammi | two or three. I think two of the three are the same |
| 10:04.44 | jammi | it seems like two distinct extra keys http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/MacBookProJISKeyboard-1.jpg |
| 10:05.14 | jammi | but on large-size desktop keyboards, one of them is on both sides of the space key (not really a bar at that size): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Japanese_keyboards.jpg/800px-Japanese_keyboards.jpg |
| 10:06.07 | hramrach | yeah, some are mapped to normal keys |
| 10:06.11 | hramrach | 3 extra |
| 10:06.15 | jammi | I for one wouldn't mind two extra modifier keys to bind to my own keyboard shortcuts |
| 10:06.35 | hramrach | but would make th espacebar rather short |
| 10:06.43 | hramrach | and wrong enter shape |
| 10:07.13 | jammi | well, looking at my space bar, there's just a small spot being hit, a bit below the M key |
| 10:07.41 | jammi | which is clearly visible because it's been worn smooth at that point, but not really elsewhere |
| 10:07.49 | hramrach | there are two different JApanese keys in that spot |
| 10:08.19 | jammi | yes, I would map one of them to space, and have the actual space as a modifier |
| 10:10.09 | jammi | I wouldn't mind losing capslock either, but the control should imo be on the left side of A, like it traditionally was, and the awkward corner position of the ctrl makes a nice meta key for the few apps that need that (practically all of them being vt-apps) |
| 10:10.29 | Gumboot | 27 09:15 <libv> but the rpi foundation is busy trying to tell us the exact opposite |
| 10:10.48 | Gumboot | They seem to be locked into some horrible pattern of directly denying every criticism rather than admitting it if it's true. |
| 10:11.19 | jammi | Gumboot: yes, and there are some blind fanatics supporting them, yet screaming "freedom as in beer!" |
| 10:11.37 | jammi | or is it as in speech, I forgot which they support |
| 10:11.45 | hramrach | X crashed in FreeGlyph :s |
| 10:11.45 | Gumboot | "It's for education!" |
| 10:12.01 | hramrach | this font handling really is bugged a lot |
| 10:12.08 | Gumboot | Whatever it is they're screaming, it's a cult. |
| 10:12.21 | hramrach | cults sell |
| 10:12.24 | hramrach | see APple |
| 10:12.56 | Gumboot | Steve couldn't take his RDF with him, so it floated off and found a new home. |
| 10:14.35 | hramrach | seems most Japanese keyboards are based on ISO so useless |
| 10:14.43 | hramrach | but the extrakeys would be nice |
| 10:14.54 | hramrach | stndardized, always there |
| 10:15.15 | hramrach | not liek those media keys different on eeach keyboard |
| 10:17.37 | jammi | it's not based on either |
| 10:17.48 | jammi | the left shift is like in ansi |
| 10:18.22 | jammi | anyhow, there should be at least three different physical layouts available for different markets, and not everyone in their market prefer the common type there |
| 10:18.53 | jammi | plus the markings, for the retarded people who can't touch-type |
| 10:20.23 | jammi | the japanese input standard is actually older than either of ansi or iso input standards |
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| 11:55.30 | hramrach | mnemoc: seriously, what's wrong with Asus transformer? |
| 11:55.57 | hramrach | have you seen that stuff for real? |
| 11:56.06 | hramrach | looks okish in pictures |
| 11:56.45 | hramrach | sure, sloppy mechanical design of the hinge might be a letdown and Asus is not known for perfection |
| 11:59.17 | jammi | it'd be great, if others than apple understood the devil is in the details |
| 11:59.38 | jammi | more than the sum of the parts -thinking |
| 12:00.35 | hramrach | Apple is also known for the "we know what is good for you" and "if you don't like our way go away" |
| 12:00.44 | hramrach | GNOME picked those up recently |
| 12:01.11 | hramrach | GNOME is the Apple of Linux :s |
| 12:01.14 | torindel | hramrach: dont forget about "it doesnt matter how much it will cost, you'll pay anyway" ^^ |
| 12:01.24 | jammi | hramrach: that's just a result of the 80/20 rule |
| 12:02.02 | hramrach | this http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/laptops-and-netbooks/sony-vaio-duo-11-1094047/review |
| 12:02.03 | jammi | they do what's best for the 80% and there are so many different things in the remaining 20%, that they'd just conflict with the interests of the 80% |
| 12:02.15 | hramrach | is another way to attach a keyboard to a tablet |
| 12:02.37 | jammi | as a result, trying to satisfy more results in satisfaction of fewer |
| 12:02.51 | hramrach | besides the obvious way to get a separate keyboard and tablet and put them ito a stylish leather case that makes the parts into a clamshell |
| 12:04.00 | hramrach | jammi: the design 'if less than 80% users require this feature we don't even provide option for it' |
| 12:04.05 | jammi | well, that's definitely better if it's trying to be a tablet most of the time |
| 12:04.49 | hramrach | and since every user is a minority in some respect it satifies none |
| 12:04.58 | jammi | hramrach: so? it's still good for the 80%. there isn't even an option for things that conflict too much with the general good |
| 12:05.50 | jammi | or within the remaining miniority, which consists of an infinite amount of contradicting opinions from not only the 80%, but each other too |
| 12:06.05 | lawrence | i suggest compromise on having as an option |
| 12:06.28 | lawrence | eg build #1 full clamshell |
| 12:06.37 | lawrence | build #2 tablet style with optional kb |
| 12:06.50 | lawrence | then kickstarter and see which one is wanted more |
| 12:07.02 | lawrence | i can research both |
| 12:07.11 | jammi | sliding clamshell attachment would be a nice option, just like the vaio duo. especially if it's removable |
| 12:07.30 | lawrence | just remember that custom designed hardware will increase cost significantly |
| 12:07.36 | hramrach | the dua is not removable I suspect. battery in the bottom for stability |
| 12:07.39 | jammi | chances are, though, that such users would very seldomly use the keyboard |
| 12:07.46 | lawrence | so i strongly recommend reuse existing designs if possible in first iteration |
| 12:07.56 | lawrence | as otherwise its going to be too costly. |
| 12:08.10 | hramrach | clamshell is trivial from mechanical design point of view |
| 12:08.12 | lawrence | initial run for hardware is minimum 1000pieces |
| 12:08.36 | hramrach | at least compared to the other options |
| 12:08.49 | lawrence | doing custom design for casing is not feasible for 1000 units |
| 12:08.53 | hramrach | other than tablet+keyboard+case |
| 12:09.00 | lawrence | its only when you get to 50k or 100k units that it makes sense |
| 12:09.00 | jammi | the more moving parts, the more likely one of them fails |
| 12:09.06 | lawrence | so, thats why i say no |
| 12:09.18 | lawrence | unless you can provide say preorders of 100k units |
| 12:09.19 | hramrach | mean case= some piece of cloth that holds the stuff together |
| 12:09.32 | lawrence | no, case as in plastic or metal shell |
| 12:09.52 | jammi | does routed metal even cost more than plastic nowadays? |
| 12:10.43 | hramrach | lawrence: if when you have separate tablet and keyboard the case that holds them together need not have that much plastic |
| 12:11.17 | hramrach | that's an option that makes the stuff detacable but avoids the pitfalls of custom case |
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| 12:12.02 | hramrach | as in custom slide-out hinges and stuff like that |
| 12:12.07 | jammi | I think something made out of metal and a hinge attached with honest M5 bolts would be awesome |
| 12:12.09 | lawrence | panels don't come with casing |
| 12:12.15 | lawrence | so you need a casing |
| 12:12.22 | jammi | something that looks and feels like an actual tool |
| 12:12.25 | lawrence | panel + batteries + charge circuit |
| 12:12.30 | lawrence | need to sit inside something |
| 12:12.38 | lawrence | so we need a case of sorts |
| 12:12.43 | hramrach | true |
| 12:12.46 | lawrence | there are tons of options |
| 12:12.54 | lawrence | but we need to decide on them |
| 12:12.56 | lawrence | just saying |
| 12:13.14 | lawrence | what i can do tomorrow is scan some of the factory magazines for examples for you |
| 12:13.17 | hramrach | but to attach the keyboard to that or not is the question |
| 12:13.29 | lawrence | and upload to the dl.cubieboard.com/ folder i made for this |
| 12:13.33 | lawrence | so you can see some options |
| 12:13.53 | hramrach | it's always nice t osee more stuff |
| 12:13.55 | lawrence | if we go with existing shell design, then casing is in the low low cost price range |
| 12:14.06 | lawrence | worst case I can print out a casing to test |
| 12:14.45 | hramrach | that would be ultimate open hardware if you could make jsut off-the-shelf parts list and 3D case model |
| 12:15.03 | lawrence | hell yeah :) |
| 12:15.32 | lawrence | heres something i printed last week - http://www.flickr.com/photos/sheedl/8404226955/in/photostream |
| 12:15.56 | lawrence | http://www.flickr.com/photos/sheedl/8404226609/in/photostream also |
| 12:16.09 | lawrence | its literally my 2nd print from that printer |
| 12:16.44 | hramrach | did you build your own or where did you get? |
| 12:16.55 | lawrence | look at my flickr photos for more images |
| 12:17.02 | lawrence | its my 2nd printer |
| 12:17.08 | hramrach | cool |
| 12:17.11 | lawrence | the first was an up, thats in .za now |
| 12:17.15 | jammi | how about something retro like this: http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/10/article-0-14EE3D4E000005DC-303_634x434.jpg |
| 12:17.38 | jammi | just fill the back attachment with as many batteries as you like |
| 12:17.41 | lawrence | i broke one of those once |
| 12:17.56 | jammi | if you need 30 days of 24/7 battery time, it would be the size of that one |
| 12:18.02 | lawrence | well, we didn't break it break it. |
| 12:18.05 | lawrence | but we borrowed it |
| 12:18.15 | lawrence | and it wouldn't boot into unix again properly |
| 12:18.22 | lawrence | and the owner was a little unhappy with us |
| 12:18.43 | lawrence | if i recall was just an unclean mount, but it wouldn't boot, and we got into trouble |
| 12:18.47 | lawrence | ah, teenage years |
| 12:19.19 | jammi | our design isn't going to be the slimmest or sexiest or most durable design, and definitely not two or more of those at the same time |
| 12:19.30 | hramrach | lawrence: you have the printer built of plywood? |
| 12:19.41 | lawrence | i also have a laser |
| 12:19.43 | lawrence | and a cnc |
| 12:19.45 | jammi | so why not just go for fully functional and hacker friendly, not worrying about footprint and stuff, just make it spacey and durable |
| 12:19.47 | hramrach | some guys here used printed parts and metal bars |
| 12:19.47 | lawrence | but no shark |
| 12:20.40 | hramrach | jammi: footprint is important to some extent |
| 12:20.41 | lawrence | i'm going to redo the laser at some point |
| 12:20.49 | lawrence | the controller for it is total miff. |
| 12:20.51 | hramrach | it defines the smallest bag you can fit the thing in |
| 12:21.01 | jammi | hramrach: then kiss goodbye to durability, and hacker-friendliness |
| 12:21.24 | lawrence | I just repeat myself about choosing an existing casing if possible just to avoid cost. |
| 12:21.25 | jammi | a small, durable, yet functional design requires seven-digit r&d budgets |
| 12:21.41 | lawrence | and jammi is on the same page as me, good |
| 12:21.43 | jammi | lots and lots of iterations and user testing |
| 12:21.45 | hramrach | 12" is a lot compated to a HDMI stick |
| 12:21.50 | hramrach | lots of room left |
| 12:22.50 | jammi | so yes, I'd say shoot for something resembling early 90's design, yet with modern components |
| 12:23.02 | hramrach | lawrence: like take a netbook case without the innards? |
| 12:23.14 | hramrach | you get keyboard fitting for fre then |
| 12:24.00 | jammi | the market is filled with eeepc-like stuff already, and those things have seen more r&d than we'd ever afford, yet they're crap |
| 12:24.54 | hramrach | how much r&d has the case seen? |
| 12:25.15 | hramrach | netbooks are in cheap segment so the try to send as little as possible |
| 12:25.23 | hramrach | and each model has its own case |
| 12:25.30 | hramrach | so not much reuse |
| 12:25.52 | lawrence | lots of reuse |
| 12:25.55 | lawrence | heaps |
| 12:26.08 | lawrence | there are factories here that only do case mouldings |
| 12:26.21 | lawrence | quite a few laptops just have "STICKER BRAND ATTACHED" |
| 12:26.28 | lawrence | and are generic factory designs |
| 12:26.33 | hramrach | of course |
| 12:26.34 | lawrence | aka OEM |
| 12:26.37 | jammi | hramrach: to shoot for the really cheap segment, you need lots of r&d to make something that will sell in huge numbers. large production runs offset the r&d costs |
| 12:26.59 | jammi | and enables the r&d to focus on details that make it cheap to mass-produce |
| 12:27.00 | lawrence | so, my suggestion is to use that existing designed stuff |
| 12:27.08 | lawrence | and pick appropriately from that pool |
| 12:27.14 | lawrence | as there is a ton available |
| 12:27.18 | lawrence | and i have access to it |
| 12:27.30 | hramrach | jammi: big r&d and big volumes is one point |
| 12:27.33 | jammi | either that, or just a straight-edged box with minimalistic attachments |
| 12:27.49 | lawrence | and can also assist with some of the research as i already have factories etc we do bits with |
| 12:27.50 | hramrach | but focus on makein cheap to mass produce vs focus on making good product is another |
| 12:28.07 | lawrence | you need to decide on form factor |
| 12:28.14 | lawrence | you need to decide on functionality |
| 12:28.20 | lawrence | those drive the next bits |
| 12:28.31 | jammi | hramrach: I doubt people will spent $2000 per excellently designed small case in small production runs |
| 12:28.34 | lawrence | i'd suggest model 1 - table style |
| 12:28.35 | jammi | *spend |
| 12:28.45 | lawrence | model 2 - clamshell style |
| 12:28.50 | jammi | especially as the stuff that goes inside is in two digit sums |
| 12:29.02 | lawrence | and model 1 has keyboard using existing designs |
| 12:29.14 | hramrach | lawrence: I am a tablet owner and I am very unhappy about that device |
| 12:29.29 | lawrence | so model #1 would probably be a 10" tablet size to allow utilization of the bazillion keybards available for said devices |
| 12:29.34 | lawrence | or an 8" |
| 12:29.35 | jammi | model 3: desktop case |
| 12:29.36 | hramrach | the form fastor is only part of the problem but I personally am looking for something that has a keyboard |
| 12:29.45 | jammi | like desktop as in imac or something |
| 12:30.04 | jammi | basically tablet with stand, no batteries or hid devices |
| 12:30.05 | lawrence | i think you need to concentrate on 1 item at a time |
| 12:30.10 | jammi | would be the simplest and cheapest thing |
| 12:30.20 | lawrence | the r&d on one product is going to be about 6 months at min anyway |
| 12:30.28 | lawrence | from concept to first actual in hand design |
| 12:30.36 | hramrach | also tablets are widespread and varied, no need to compete with those |
| 12:30.48 | lawrence | i do like the idea of tablet display |
| 12:31.09 | lawrence | no cpu inside, but battery,display and hdmi / dp / other input + touch panel |
| 12:31.20 | lawrence | as that is an easy sell to a larger segment of the market |
| 12:31.41 | lawrence | and there isn't anything currently like that out there that i can point at. |
| 12:31.47 | hramrach | of course, if it was only display 'plug your cpu' it would solve half of the problems I have with my current tablet |
| 12:31.52 | lawrence | so that would be a good 1st stage |
| 12:32.01 | hramrach | the ohter half is that I do need a keayboard, though |
| 12:32.02 | lawrence | display + touch panel + possibly camera + audio |
| 12:32.07 | lawrence | and usb hub |
| 12:36.28 | hramrach | and the reason why tablet with removable keyboard is so nice device to design is that it sells to two differnt kinds of people or can be used in two different ways |
| 12:36.37 | *** join/#arm-netbook rz2k (~rz2k@89-178-238-226.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 12:37.09 | jammi | as for keyboard, I'd just suggest threaded bolt holes for attaching that, if needed |
| 12:37.09 | lawrence | and its a solved problem |
| 12:37.19 | lawrence | there are so many nice designs for tablet + keyboard here in china |
| 12:37.30 | lawrence | with battery and usb or bluetooth in the keyboard clamshell side |
| 12:37.30 | jammi | same bolt holes for those who like to just use the desktop stand |
| 12:38.02 | jammi | preferrably something sturdy, like standard M5 threads or such |
| 12:38.23 | hramrach | go for VESA ;-) |
| 12:38.33 | jammi | the back panel could either be slim or one that can hold the battery |
| 12:38.54 | jammi | I don't like too much the idea of having the battery on the keyboard side |
| 12:39.43 | jammi | maybe half-vesa, like the same spacing, but just two holes |
| 12:39.58 | lawrence | you're going back to not possible in first iteration |
| 12:39.59 | jammi | if that's a desirable thing |
| 12:40.08 | jammi | I was thinking of them at the edge |
| 12:40.11 | lawrence | as i want x,y,z means need to make a shell... |
| 12:40.17 | jammi | not as a part of the back panel |
| 12:41.25 | jammi | I'd say just minimal bezel for a screen, milled out of aluminium, surround the bezel with threaded holes at the edges for various attachments |
| 12:42.06 | jammi | then have some sort of standard connector within for display + power to the screen, and attachment points for other things |
| 12:42.32 | hramrach | jammi: making extra holes is a nice mod but not so easy in mass production |
| 12:43.05 | jammi | hramrach: I'm thinking of a standard base component that would fit all three scenarios |
| 12:43.21 | jammi | the lowest common denominator |
| 12:44.14 | lawrence | i would suggest tablet casing from off the shelf factory product mould |
| 12:44.15 | jammi | which would then accept the cheapest option of just keeping bare pcb's at the back, suspended with whatever, and a minimal bolt-on stand and a bolt-on webcam for those who want that |
| 12:44.25 | lawrence | that our panel + pcb fits into |
| 12:44.36 | lawrence | then look at next steps |
| 12:44.52 | lawrence | there are existing designs that have spacing for pcb, and camera and lcd panel. |
| 12:44.58 | lawrence | so i would look at those |
| 12:45.05 | jammi | at least tablet front-side would make sense |
| 12:45.05 | lawrence | but thats just me being realistic |
| 12:45.27 | hramrach | realistic is good for finishing something ;-) |
| 12:46.11 | jammi | such a tablet base could then have a super-thin plate back for the clamshell stuff, which would have traditional laptop component placement |
| 12:46.32 | jammi | or tablet-like attachment for the other components for that version |
| 12:46.46 | jammi | and just a hump at the back + stand for the desktop version |
| 12:47.02 | lawrence | plus a tablet chassis will also have easy mounting for touch panel glass |
| 12:47.09 | jammi | needless to say, I'd be in for the mini-imac -like deal |
| 12:47.11 | lawrence | assuming we go that route, and i say we do |
| 12:47.24 | lawrence | as its a minimal added cost |
| 12:47.24 | jammi | especially if it can be placed in portrait mode |
| 12:47.37 | lawrence | thats up to the os more than the screen |
| 12:47.58 | jammi | no, it's up to the support structure |
| 12:48.20 | jammi | the software side is a non-issue |
| 12:49.19 | jinzo | You have to be kidding? I didn't follow your whole discussion, but the software side is the biggest issue/problem |
| 12:49.23 | jammi | but I'd accept something like that as a side-machine on my table. I'd probably control it with my existing laptop's hid devices over vnc or something like that |
| 12:49.51 | jinzo | there are already a lot of good hardware out there, but the software support lacks severly |
| 12:49.53 | jammi | jinzo: no. rotating a screen isn't black magic. it's year 2013 |
| 12:50.10 | jinzo | I tought you meant as in a whole. |
| 12:50.41 | jinzo | just look at the allwinner, RK or amlogic state of the drivers/code/GPL compliance |
| 12:51.22 | jammi | yes, that's another matter, but it doesn't have anything to do with the mechanical casing discussion we're having |
| 12:51.27 | hramrach | jinzo: if you mount a touchscreen in there you getto pick what touch layer, what interface, write one driver, solved for good |
| 12:51.38 | lawrence | USB touchscreen |
| 12:51.46 | lawrence | then just up to kernel to have driver |
| 12:51.48 | lawrence | over usb |
| 12:51.50 | lawrence | no big deal |
| 12:51.55 | lawrence | for rotation on screen |
| 12:51.57 | lawrence | thats harder |
| 12:51.59 | lawrence | no standard |
| 12:52.06 | jinzo | I know you're talking about different aspects, but not taking this into account could be a fatal error in my honest opinion. |
| 12:52.24 | lawrence | how does your screen know to tell an external device in a standard way to rotate? |
| 12:52.26 | lawrence | it can't |
| 12:52.50 | hramrach | lawrence: there are sensors for that but typically mounted on an internal bus |
| 12:53.06 | lawrence | sure, you can add a usb rotation feature, but then you need to make a driver for your device that reads it and acts appropriately |
| 12:53.07 | hramrach | can look through kernel configs |
| 12:53.09 | jammi | lawrence: in addition to just display/touch screen interfacing, I think it would be sane to include a usb-hub and internal io breakout stuff / connectors on the display board |
| 12:53.44 | lawrence | i agree we need to have usb hub on the display driver pcb |
| 12:53.54 | jammi | you'll want the hub just to have a few spare ports after using two of them for webcam + touchscreen already |
| 12:54.02 | lawrence | so we can have our multiple devices |
| 12:54.08 | lawrence | like cam, touch panel etc |
| 12:54.23 | lawrence | and then the attached device just see's a hub and mounts appropriately |
| 12:54.33 | lawrence | which is fairly straightfoward - no work needed |
| 12:54.48 | lawrence | (except for implementing on the pcb hardware side of course) |
| 12:54.49 | jammi | if the source board would be a cubieboard, it'd probably be a good idea to keep one of them just passed through, and the other subjected to the hub and internal devices |
| 12:54.52 | hramrach | the rotation might be critical for tablet style device, actually |
| 12:54.58 | hramrach | many people expect it |
| 12:55.14 | lawrence | issue is that if its a "dumb" screen with usb hub |
| 12:55.21 | lawrence | how do you tell your OS it rotated? |
| 12:55.27 | lawrence | there is no standard way for that |
| 12:55.43 | jammi | you configure the display settings |
| 12:55.45 | hramrach | you can make a small utility for that |
| 12:55.51 | lawrence | so no random hardware hdmi android device or similar attached hardware will know how |
| 12:55.55 | jammi | no need for anything fancier imho |
| 12:55.56 | lawrence | its possible, but why |
| 12:56.17 | jammi | if someone wants to use an accelerometer, then make that optional, if it adds the price considerably |
| 12:56.21 | lawrence | featurewise its a lot less lileky to be used |
| 12:56.38 | lawrence | as you'll need to compile up custom drivers for your given hardware to use it |
| 12:56.55 | lawrence | and that immediately becomes a much tinier subset of users |
| 12:56.57 | hramrach | it can be compeltely userspace application |
| 12:57.00 | lawrence | unless its the defacto standard |
| 12:57.11 | hramrach | HID accelerometer saying which way |
| 12:57.12 | jammi | no, just a daemon that lazily reads the accelerometer and tells the driver to switch the resolution/orientation |
| 12:57.12 | lawrence | sure, but you need to add it into whatver device is attached |
| 12:57.23 | jammi | it doesn't need to be a part of the driver itself |
| 12:57.32 | lawrence | i'd suggest it as a nice to have |
| 12:57.33 | hramrach | not sure waht options for accelerometer are there, thouhg |
| 12:57.38 | lawrence | rather than a v1 |
| 12:57.42 | lawrence | there are options |
| 12:58.02 | lawrence | eg mercury tiny things that switch on / off depending rotation |
| 12:58.17 | lawrence | put 1 in each direction (vertical, and horizontal) |
| 12:58.21 | hramrach | lawrence: the problem is that the tablet cases are designed for rotation. they tend to be featureless wrt orientation |
| 12:58.21 | lawrence | read via a GPIO |
| 12:58.22 | jammi | accelerometers are fairly standard afaik |
| 12:58.38 | lawrence | and then have the usb device say X or Y rotation in the driver |
| 12:58.38 | hramrach | so using a tablet without rotation might be quite a pita |
| 12:58.40 | jammi | the interfacing isn't, but there are plenty of linux drivers for that |
| 12:58.53 | lawrence | but then that means you need some sort of cpu on the dumb display now to do that |
| 12:59.08 | jammi | no |
| 12:59.26 | hramrach | lawrence: no GPIO. needs to be USB to interface a HDMI stick |
| 12:59.30 | jammi | it means you allocate one of the gpio's for a 1-wire bus |
| 12:59.51 | hramrach | lawrence: there are pre-made HID chips |
| 13:00.14 | hramrach | you just mod the firmware |
| 13:00.18 | jammi | in any case, it's not too difficult, but adds complexity to the pcb design |
| 13:00.36 | lawrence | i'd mark it as a nice to have |
| 13:00.46 | lawrence | or v2 req. |
| 13:00.49 | lawrence | not a v1 req |
| 13:00.56 | jammi | i2c is common for stuff like that though, doesn't need anything as fancy as usb |
| 13:01.11 | lawrence | ok, how does device du jour talk to i2c? |
| 13:01.21 | lawrence | we then need to stick an i2c bus on the display panel |
| 13:01.23 | hramrach | jammi: where is i2c on a HDMI stick? |
| 13:01.45 | jammi | hramrach: any programmable gpio pin will do |
| 13:02.12 | hramrach | jammi: where is any single programmable GPIO pin on the outside of a HDMI stick? |
| 13:02.42 | jammi | of which hdmi stick? |
| 13:02.49 | hramrach | whatever the display has must be HDMI+USB |
| 13:03.00 | hramrach | otherwise device compatibility will suffer |
| 13:03.04 | jammi | and why would you keep the casing of a hdmi stick within another casing? |
| 13:03.18 | hramrach | so you can remove and replace it |
| 13:03.18 | lawrence | also, i'm off the opinion that the hdmi sticks are a short term solution |
| 13:03.30 | jammi | lawrence: so am I |
| 13:03.32 | lawrence | mostly as tv's come with SoC's built in |
| 13:03.40 | lawrence | you just can't find a dumb tv anymore |
| 13:03.46 | lawrence | they all come with android now |
| 13:03.50 | lawrence | (here in china) |
| 13:03.54 | hramrach | the sticks may be but the interface is to stay |
| 13:04.03 | lawrence | so probably +2 years to propagate to you in the real world(tm) |
| 13:04.06 | lawrence | so probably +2 years to propagate to you in the real world(™) |
| 13:04.24 | hramrach | also whatever comes in hte TV will inevitable suck and/or become obsolete quickly so you stil need the sticks |
| 13:04.58 | hramrach | the lifetime of a TV is way longer than the lifetime of an android device |
| 13:05.06 | hramrach | same with display |
| 13:05.12 | lawrence | i think people will prefer a box rather than a stick |
| 13:05.15 | lawrence | eg apple tv |
| 13:05.18 | lawrence | or similar shape |
| 13:05.26 | jammi | I just treat tv's as big monitors |
| 13:05.31 | lawrence | me also |
| 13:05.37 | hramrach | sticks ahve smaller shipping and storage cost |
| 13:05.53 | hramrach | shipping empty boxes is useless |
| 13:06.04 | lawrence | i'm not going to argue |
| 13:06.23 | hramrach | ofc some people like thje extraspace but others like the smaller solution |
| 13:06.26 | lawrence | but i'd bet money in say 5 years time, there won't be many factories making them |
| 13:06.41 | lawrence | as its a niche product that fits the current state of affairs |
| 13:06.58 | hramrach | then the lifetime of TV will become 2yrs? |
| 13:07.08 | lawrence | no. |
| 13:07.11 | lawrence | why would it |
| 13:07.26 | lawrence | but a year ago, hardly any factories making these sticks |
| 13:07.28 | hramrach | but no way to upgrade android on *any* current android device |
| 13:07.33 | lawrence | now every factory making them |
| 13:07.44 | hramrach | so you need to make new |
| 13:07.48 | jammi | why a stick, when you could have something like eoma-68 |
| 13:07.49 | lawrence | and potential profit for factory just went down the tubes |
| 13:07.52 | hramrach | or the android market must change |
| 13:08.34 | lawrence | so, factories will rejig to make a diff product or however unlikely decide that making an open source version is the way forward, as hell, look at the sales for old bits of crud like the pi. |
| 13:08.41 | jammi | there's gpio, usb, ethernet, video etc on those |
| 13:08.48 | jammi | all on a single, standard connector |
| 13:09.05 | jammi | if one wants to use a hdmi stick, then provide an adapter for that |
| 13:09.05 | hramrach | nobody makes eoma so far |
| 13:09.09 | jammi | not the other way around |
| 13:09.25 | hramrach | but many sticks available |
| 13:09.37 | lawrence | the ARDUINO and the PI are good because they're defacto standards now |
| 13:09.44 | lawrence | so a good culture around then |
| 13:09.47 | lawrence | them |
| 13:10.04 | jammi | yep, and they're popular because they have various freely programmable pins exposed |
| 13:10.04 | lawrence | unless a chinese factory can get that sort of takeup for a product, they won't invest time |
| 13:10.14 | hramrach | arduino is ggod because its cheap, documented, and available |
| 13:10.21 | lawrence | most of the issues with factory product here is that they dont' do the software. |
| 13:10.24 | hramrach | PI is ad-boosted |
| 13:10.25 | lawrence | they get it done barely |
| 13:10.27 | lawrence | get it out |
| 13:10.34 | lawrence | and then move onto next big thing |
| 13:10.40 | lawrence | the key is the software |
| 13:10.58 | hramrach | indeed |
| 13:10.59 | lawrence | but by the time the software is sorted, the next big and better SoC is out, and the old one is dumped |
| 13:11.21 | lawrence | which is why the Quad Core ARM SoC's are powering all the newer versions of the HDMI Android keys now |
| 13:11.23 | hramrach | and in an Android TV the software will be bug-ridden, obsolete in 1yr and useless in 2yrs |
| 13:11.57 | hramrach | no, the new SoC is out *before* the software is sorted |
| 13:12.02 | hramrach | it never works |
| 13:13.21 | lawrence | so, back to my point |
| 13:13.30 | lawrence | while your current hardware does X |
| 13:13.34 | lawrence | future may not |
| 13:13.34 | hramrach | why do you need a quad core chip in a HDMI stick? |
| 13:13.38 | hramrach | what for? |
| 13:13.55 | lawrence | so i think dumb display with inputs is the right way |
| 13:14.05 | *** join/#arm-netbook WarheadsSE (~WarheadsS@c-174-59-252-104.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) |
| 13:14.05 | hramrach | and that's why the display should have standard interface and no GPIO |
| 13:14.13 | lawrence | @hramrach - because thats what the factories are making now |
| 13:14.34 | lawrence | and the older dual and single core ones are being remaindered for lower and lower pricing to dump stock |
| 13:15.10 | hramrach | but you do not need more than one core to run a HDMI stick ffs |
| 13:15.34 | hramrach | that's why the 1-core chips were designed in the first place |
| 13:15.57 | hramrach | they were designed *after* duals to reduce costs |
| 13:15.59 | lawrence | feel free to go talk to factories about how you think that, and how their competition are idiots for selling hundreds of thousands of units claimning X |
| 13:16.16 | lawrence | no, thats not why the dual cores were made |
| 13:16.19 | jammi | gpio doesn't hurt, if you don't want to use it |
| 13:16.46 | lawrence | these SoC's fairly sit in the lets jump on this tablet bandwagon and sell lots of chips |
| 13:17.09 | lawrence | its good for us, as they're eminently usable for lots of things, and dirt cheap |
| 13:17.12 | jammi | but making everything, even no-brainerly simple 1-bit things interface with usb is going to make the board big, complex and expensive |
| 13:17.18 | hramrach | yes, they can brag they have dual core HDMI stick |
| 13:17.32 | hramrach | but that won't make it better stick, just eat more power |
| 13:18.04 | hramrach | sure, it will make it better devbox |
| 13:18.19 | *** join/#arm-netbook pcat (~cat@gprs-internet-bceea4-195.dhcp.inet.fi) |
| 13:18.29 | hramrach | but not better stick because they ahve to start from scratch with the software and it will again never work |
| 13:20.31 | lawrence | no, they don't |
| 13:20.44 | lawrence | they get a BSP from the SoC manufacturer |
| 13:21.06 | hramrach | as they did for the previous stick and never made it work |
| 13:21.06 | lawrence | which has barely working drivers hacked into whatevr the current Android version is and thats what gets supported |
| 13:21.14 | lawrence | till the next SoC comes out. |
| 13:21.17 | lawrence | then rinse and repeat |
| 13:22.19 | hramrach | but the CHinese are not in the position to change that |
| 13:22.36 | hramrach | they must work with whatevet current SoC and BSP is |
| 13:22.49 | hramrach | they can use the old one but they cannot fix the issues |
| 13:23.16 | hramrach | and the SoC owner does not care about noname Chinese company or their customers |
| 13:23.18 | lawrence | well, no-one invests the time to fix the issues, except for suckers like us |
| 13:23.53 | lawrence | SoC company doesn't care too much about hey - driver X doens't work well unless you're say a customer buying 400k of product. |
| 13:24.11 | hramrach | there is no press on SoC owner to fix suff because no SoC has working software |
| 13:24.11 | lawrence | in which case then they'll smack the software guys into action |
| 13:25.21 | lawrence | CedarX is licenced. MALI is licenced. The ARM design is licenced. Its pretty much x+y+z for the SoC guys + tie together and make a nice eval board for clients to buy and use |
| 13:25.57 | lawrence | although there is laying out the chip with all that, then off to foundry to make |
| 13:26.11 | lawrence | but its gotten easier than it used to be |
| 13:26.12 | hramrach | well, I mean the owner of the IP like Cedar or Mali |
| 13:26.14 | aholler | dmi, usb, sata, serial, ... is stolen? |
| 13:26.28 | lawrence | they're standards |
| 13:26.39 | lawrence | standards are mostly free |
| 13:26.44 | lawrence | to encourage people to use them |
| 13:26.52 | lawrence | or cheap enough to licence |
| 13:27.09 | lawrence | MALI is developed / owned by ARM |
| 13:27.18 | hramrach | Mali is chaep enough to licens to make chip with but not cheap enough to make working software with |
| 13:27.30 | hramrach | or CedarX |
| 13:27.47 | lawrence | CedarX is licenced from another chinese company that made it |
| 13:28.09 | hramrach | sure |
| 13:28.14 | hramrach | whatever company |
| 13:28.25 | hramrach | no media accelerator is working well |
| 13:28.26 | lawrence | i had it down somewhere |
| 13:28.37 | lawrence | some dinky little chinese one |
| 13:28.50 | hramrach | so why care fixing their drivers when no competition does better? |
| 13:29.24 | lawrence | they care when you go, hey i just ordered 100,000 units, and this doesn't work. |
| 13:29.32 | lawrence | we're thinking of using this other cooler soc |
| 13:29.36 | jammi | because there are apple and a few others who actually support what they make |
| 13:29.36 | lawrence | what are your thoughts |
| 13:30.15 | lawrence | don't you mean samsung? |
| 13:30.22 | lawrence | ducks |
| 13:30.41 | jammi | samsung doesn't seem to support very well/long their stuff |
| 13:30.48 | lawrence | actually apple did buy a fabless soc devteam last year |
| 13:30.49 | hramrach | not does Apple |
| 13:30.58 | lawrence | so their new stuff is going to be more them than licenced |
| 13:31.36 | jammi | the apple arm soc's are some of the few that are actually manually routed etc |
| 13:31.55 | aholler | you have a funny view about soc's are designed. standard = easy is makes me laugh ;) |
| 13:32.14 | hramrach | jammi: and does that make the software usable? |
| 13:32.16 | jammi | they make their own development tools, os, drivers, libs, apps etc |
| 13:32.18 | lawrence | i'm simplifying it somewhat |
| 13:32.28 | lawrence | i know there is a lot more involved |
| 13:32.31 | jammi | how is that not supporting? it's first-level, first-party support |
| 13:32.47 | lawrence | was replying to @aholler |
| 13:33.04 | jammi | and update the device software years after they no longer sell them |
| 13:33.48 | hramrach | jammi: is ther a bug? deal with it. we fix it in next update maybe. you want feature X? no way we did not design in such feature and we know better. We nolonger support HW rev XY. buy a new one sucker. - apple support for you |
| 13:34.27 | lawrence | and in the case of where they use external product |
| 13:34.33 | lawrence | like say cedarx or mali |
| 13:34.37 | lawrence | they need to ask the supplier |
| 13:34.41 | lawrence | and that takes time |
| 13:34.44 | lawrence | and finger pointing |
| 13:34.48 | lawrence | till resolved |
| 13:35.43 | *** join/#arm-netbook rsalveti (~rsalveti@unaffiliated/rsalveti) |
| 13:36.17 | jammi | hramrach: there are seldomly bugs like on the cheap android stuff |
| 13:37.05 | jammi | and yes, they have bug reporting built-in |
| 13:37.12 | hramrach | jammi: cheap android suff is at least designed with inputs and output ports |
| 13:37.34 | hramrach | that does not mean they have bug resolving built in |
| 13:37.34 | jammi | of which half ever work properly |
| 13:38.06 | jammi | https://developer.apple.com/bugreporter/ |
| 13:38.27 | hramrach | I don't say android does better. I just don't see Apple doing that stunning job, either |
| 13:38.37 | hramrach | better in some respects and worse in others |
| 13:38.53 | jammi | I think apple is doing the most stunning job at it out of the real-world companies out there |
| 13:39.00 | hramrach | just one more broken device in the crowd to pick from |
| 13:39.14 | jammi | in imagination-land, there might be better ones |
| 13:40.00 | hramrach | apple makes devicese defective by design. If you accept that whatthey designed is the goal then it is working better than most competition. I do not accept that |
| 13:40.54 | specing | iPooP |
| 13:43.07 | *** join/#arm-netbook rz2k (~rz2k@89-178-238-226.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 13:47.10 | jammi | hramrach: that's just not based on reality |
| 13:49.02 | jammi | in the rest of the industry, companies ship defective stuff knowingly, then the hardware manufacturer fingerpoints at the software manufacturer and vice versa |
| 13:49.17 | *** join/#arm-netbook SouL_ (~SouL_@95.211.10.204) |
| 13:49.58 | jammi | apple has only themselves to point at, so they have to keep their standards fairly high |
| 13:51.26 | jammi | and also have to keep from shipping half-baked features, because they have to support it, again because they just can't blame others for it |
| 13:51.48 | lawrence | out of the chinese SoC guys I find ingenic fairly good |
| 13:51.53 | jammi | I'm just saying others should do the same |
| 13:52.00 | lawrence | decent docs |
| 13:52.03 | lawrence | and readily available |
| 13:52.22 | *** part/#arm-netbook SouL_ (~SouL_@95.211.10.204) |
| 13:52.25 | lawrence | they're an underdog though, which is probably why |
| 13:52.46 | lawrence | its a large market here in china doing tablet SoC's as tons of factories |
| 13:53.04 | lawrence | so you want your SoC to be used and in product |
| 13:53.29 | lawrence | MTK is probably the largest most widely used here by a large degree |
| 13:53.45 | lawrence | as thats the Soc in the majority of phones sold |
| 13:53.52 | lawrence | by volume |
| 13:54.56 | lawrence | *manufacturer of SoC's |
| 13:56.08 | lawrence | MTK = MediaTek |
| 13:58.30 | lawrence | and guess what, they have a quad core chipset |
| 13:59.12 | lawrence | because @hramrach quad core is the new dual core gimmick ;) |
| 14:01.37 | lawrence | note to self, go organize an MT6589 devkit |
| 14:01.44 | penguin42 | some of them are only quad a5 or a7's aren't they? |
| 14:02.13 | penguin42 | but hey it says 'quad' |
| 14:02.52 | lawrence | 6589 is a quad A7 |
| 14:03.04 | lawrence | with PowerVR 5xt gpu |
| 14:03.15 | lawrence | and some other bits n bobs |
| 14:03.52 | lawrence | i wonder who buys the tegra 4's |
| 14:05.52 | hramrach | lawrence: I picked A10 because it has mali |
| 14:06.13 | hramrach | same as Exynos - easy upgrade |
| 14:06.32 | hramrach | hopefully lima gets there and we geta real driver for once |
| 14:07.01 | lawrence | exynos is about double here over the cubie pricewise for that korean dev board |
| 14:07.32 | hramrach | sure it's more expensive for more powerful chip |
| 14:08.42 | hramrach | even if lima is not finished Mali is going to stay around for a while. Not so sure about PoWerVR |
| 14:09.51 | lawrence | its about power consumption too |
| 14:09.59 | jammi | powervr is probably going to be around for a while too, especially on apple designs |
| 14:10.14 | lawrence | the MTK stuff is really cheap though for what you get |
| 14:10.29 | hramrach | Apple is known for easily throwing old bits for the new gimmick at any turn |
| 14:10.50 | hramrach | and I don't care about apple. it's not going to help that a chip lives in some iPoop |
| 14:10.56 | jammi | they can't just throw away the hundreds of thousands of apps pretty much depending on the powervr |
| 14:11.29 | jammi | they're not stupid, you know. I'm just saying it's one of the reasons powervr will be around and will be developed further |
| 14:12.13 | hramrach | did they stick to ATI graphics? nVidia? Intel? m68k CPU? ppc? |
| 14:12.30 | hramrach | and there were hundreds of thousands apps depending on those for sure |
| 14:13.00 | hramrach | it's the apple 'we know better' |
| 14:13.04 | jammi | on osx? no, they don't have to stick with anything there, because the software isn't as tightly coupled |
| 14:14.22 | hramrach | Apple is the company that can justify throwing away just about anything with enough ad-boost |
| 14:15.13 | jammi | set aside that blind apple-hatred for a while and look at what they do correctly. you might learn something |
| 14:16.40 | jammi | they did a lot of things right to get from the tiny niche company they were a decade ago into what they're now |
| 14:17.09 | hramrach | I don't deny they do some cools tuff |
| 14:17.14 | jammi | things, that most are still catching up with |
| 14:17.29 | hramrach | I just can't stand their design decisions overall |
| 14:17.52 | hramrach | so when Apple makes something cool I wait for a Chinese clone that does the same and better |
| 14:17.54 | jammi | no-one forces you to buy their stuff, you know. |
| 14:18.08 | lawrence | but its shiny, and I must have it |
| 14:18.10 | lawrence | ;) |
| 14:18.20 | jammi | they've still been very good for the platform paradigm shift from x86 to arm |
| 14:18.56 | lawrence | back on plaj |
| 14:18.59 | lawrence | plan |
| 14:19.05 | lawrence | how about something like this for screen |
| 14:19.06 | lawrence | http://img04.taobaocdn.com/bao/uploaded/i4/T1Id03XetsXXbCDvZ8_100442.jpg_310x310.jpg |
| 14:19.24 | lawrence | where we mount on a large backplane |
| 14:19.28 | lawrence | and have mounting holes |
| 14:19.35 | jammi | do you have a higher-res pic |
| 14:19.40 | lawrence | no |
| 14:19.43 | lawrence | its just an idea |
| 14:19.49 | jammi | it's not really telling much at that thumbnail size |
| 14:20.02 | lawrence | screen mounted onto a board of some kind |
| 14:20.03 | hramrach | jammi: I was using Apple products for some years. I know exactly what I hate about thim and I know it's not gonna change. |
| 14:20.20 | lawrence | board has inputs for what we said |
| 14:20.28 | lawrence | and then its a hacker friendly device |
| 14:20.35 | lawrence | not a portable deivce |
| 14:21.25 | jammi | hramrach: you don't have to change. I don't care whether you used their products or not. I'm just saying it's pretty dumb to act as a childish hater, even worse than being a fanboy |
| 14:22.15 | jammi | they're a big player now, and for many good reasons. just ignoring them doesn't gain anything |
| 14:22.16 | hramrach | what's cildisha about hating poor quality products? |
| 14:22.58 | jammi | and just spreading around unfounded hate is even worse, it just harms yourself |
| 14:23.21 | hramrach | I am not ignoring them. I am looking what they do. Just not going to use anthing they make unless they change their design decisions considerably |
| 14:24.31 | jammi | hramrach: why are you so fixated on that? seems like you'd like to, or envy something etc. do you think it's normal to go specifically around hating everything you don't use? |
| 14:25.16 | RITRedbeard | Good for you. The marketplace needs more informed consumers instead of people buying whatever is trendy at the moment. |
| 14:25.25 | jammi | sounds like shitty-car owners going around hating better-car owners |
| 14:25.28 | hramrach | I hate them because they hold patents on some stuff that could be used in other produscts with better suited overall design but they do not license to anybody |
| 14:26.04 | jammi | hramrach: so in other words, you hate them for having stuff you want, but can't get elsewhere? |
| 14:26.16 | jammi | how twisted is that? |
| 14:26.22 | hramrach | I don't want a laptop wit mirror screen |
| 14:26.38 | jammi | yeah, so get one without a mirror screen |
| 14:26.39 | hramrach | but they hold patent on charger connector which any laptop could use |
| 14:26.45 | RITRedbeard | Yeah, matte is way better on some panels, don't you think? |
| 14:26.48 | jammi | and be happy with your non-mirrorscreen choice |
| 14:26.50 | hramrach | you cannot get one without a mirror from Apple |
| 14:27.04 | jammi | hramrach: so? get something else |
| 14:27.27 | hramrach | and charger connector patent? |
| 14:27.45 | RITRedbeard | They're a known patent troll company, sadly. |
| 14:27.50 | mnemoc | hramrach: when i've said something against the transformer? |
| 14:28.19 | RITRedbeard | The only solution in that area, given this situation, is to simply roll your own. :( |
| 14:28.25 | hramrach | mnemoc: you said something in te sense you don't like the tablet+keyboard solution I think |
| 14:28.34 | jammi | hramrach: so you want the magsafe, but don't want the screen. that's why you spend all your time going around spreading hate? |
| 14:29.23 | mnemoc | hramrach: the transformer is not a tablet with a usb keyboard hooked |
| 14:29.40 | jammi | if you wanted one that much, why don't you make one of your own? you don't need a license to make something patented for your own use |
| 14:29.56 | hramrach | yeah, that's sooo parctical |
| 14:30.00 | RITRedbeard | Surely, you're joking? |
| 14:30.57 | hramrach | at that price I could get an iBook *and* have the display replaced with matte one |
| 14:30.57 | jammi | besides, it didn't stop microsoft from using similar stuff in their surface products |
| 14:31.04 | RITRedbeard | You want this guy to buy a laptop and crack it open because the patent system is broken and this company is patent trolls? That's a bit unrealistic... |
| 14:31.09 | hramrach | at least with the older models that hade removable dispaly |
| 14:31.12 | mnemoc | hramrach: but yesterday discussion was about a dumb high res laptop/tablet to use with sticks or devboards |
| 14:31.20 | jammi | so I guess they just licensed the stuff instead of just going with shitty connectors |
| 14:31.34 | RITRedbeard | hramrach, I recommend Thinkpad T400 series. |
| 14:31.35 | mnemoc | hramrach: not against tablets per-se |
| 14:31.37 | jammi | or worked around the patents or something like that |
| 14:31.52 | RITRedbeard | or the T61 series |
| 14:31.57 | lawrence | I have a T62 |
| 14:32.11 | hramrach | jammi: MS is in the position to stand agains apple in patent war for sure. Not many others |
| 14:33.13 | jammi | hramrach: or they just don't act like whiney bitches about having to pay a license for something their customers would value |
| 14:33.45 | RITRedbeard | Voting with your wallet == whiny bitch??? |
| 14:34.10 | jammi | RITRedbeard: what? |
| 14:34.16 | *** join/#arm-netbook merbzt (~benjamin@c-94-255-219-122.cust.bredband2.com) |
| 14:34.45 | RITRedbeard | So your argument is that he should form his own computer company to make one computer? I'm a little perplexed by this... isn't it easier to vote with your wallet? |
| 14:34.46 | jammi | there's not a single product on market from anyone which isn't affected to patents |
| 14:35.07 | RITRedbeard | So then why doesn't Apple just release all their patents? |
| 14:35.17 | RITRedbeard | So every computer can have magnetic connectors? |
| 14:35.41 | RITRedbeard | Don't worry, I'll wait for you to slug around on that giant touchpad on your Macbook. |
| 14:35.46 | lawrence | off/ontopic i much preferred the older magnetic connector |
| 14:35.54 | lawrence | the newer one is always falling off |
| 14:36.02 | hramrach | I ma sure if they licensed at reasonable price everyone would buy |
| 14:36.04 | jammi | RITRedbeard: he should become a politician, if he wants to change laws. if he wants a product, he should buy it, if he can afford it. if he can't or won't, he should get something else or nothing. going around spreading hate isn't helping anyone, just makes everyone miserable |
| 14:36.11 | hramrach | but noo, they must be exclusive |
| 14:36.15 | RITRedbeard | And use your inferior chicklet keyboard. |
| 14:36.16 | RITRedbeard | I can wait. |
| 14:36.31 | lawrence | i'm happy i'm in china where your silly laws don't matter |
| 14:36.37 | lawrence | and i can buy what i want |
| 14:37.02 | lawrence | none of that Apple owns the magnetic connector so no-one else can make it sort of thing here |
| 14:37.16 | RITRedbeard | He expressed displeasure at products that don't meet his needs and said he isn't buying from them on principle. |
| 14:37.18 | RITRedbeard | It makes sense. |
| 14:37.26 | jammi | hramrach: I'm not so sure about that. most companies overlook things like power connectors. there are plenty of options besides barrels and magsafe connectors |
| 14:37.40 | lawrence | heres my t62 build http://forum.thinkpads.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=104956 |
| 14:38.16 | lawrence | as its totally possible to make 1 computer yourself |
| 14:38.22 | lawrence | using standardized parts |
| 14:38.22 | jammi | also, if apple hadn't started using magsafe, and patented it, they and everyone else would still be using barrel plugs anyway |
| 14:38.23 | RITRedbeard | He also stated he doesn't like the lack of competition in the marketplace being stiffled by patent trolls who do nothing more than enlarge their pockets while offering subpar design and instead valuing aethsetics. |
| 14:38.43 | RITRedbeard | So only Apple can make new techologies and advancements in the marketplace? |
| 14:38.48 | RITRedbeard | Oookay, you've had too much to drink. |
| 14:38.51 | RITRedbeard | You're flagged. |
| 14:39.21 | jammi | standards happen, when several companies agree on ruling out the others by introducing a common standard based on the compromise solution of each |
| 14:39.30 | lawrence | unless its RAMBUS |
| 14:39.40 | RITRedbeard | but ~*ONLY APPLE MAKES INNOVATIONS*~ |
| 14:39.46 | lawrence | in which case lets all meet, then we'll patent it behind your back |
| 14:39.59 | mnemoc | like rounded corners! |
| 14:40.06 | jammi | RITRedbeard: it doesn't have to be that way |
| 14:40.27 | jammi | anyone is open to file a patent, if they invent something first |
| 14:40.41 | RITRedbeard | You said if Apple didn't do it, then no one would have done it. |
| 14:40.57 | RITRedbeard | Either you have a crystal ball and should play the lotto or you've drank the Apple kool-aid. |
| 14:41.00 | lawrence | http://www.google.com/patents/US4211456 |
| 14:41.14 | lawrence | 1957, electrical magnetic connectots |
| 14:41.18 | jammi | RITRedbeard: I said that in this particular case, if apple hadn't started using magnetic connectors, they and everyone else would still use barrels |
| 14:41.20 | lawrence | prior art right there |
| 14:41.34 | RITRedbeard | Look at that, sounds like a BS patent to begin with. |
| 14:41.39 | jammi | so you'd need another reason to hate apple if they didn't introduce the connector |
| 14:42.32 | jammi | and I'm sure you can invent many other reasons |
| 14:42.40 | RITRedbeard | I don't think anyone hates Apple, they're frustrated that they make restrictive products and that they're aggressive in the market place enforcing their ridiculous "patents". |
| 14:42.43 | lawrence | really, its the US patent office fault |
| 14:42.48 | lawrence | as this is silly |
| 14:42.56 | RITRedbeard | I would never recommend an Apple product to anyone or ever buy one. |
| 14:43.08 | lawrence | there is no innovation on that except for blocking other companies using it |
| 14:43.15 | jammi | RITRedbeard: you don't have to. |
| 14:43.21 | lawrence | which is against the purpose of patents |
| 14:43.25 | RITRedbeard | Their designs are simply subpar and they place all the value on aesthetics in the style of Braun. |
| 14:43.51 | RITRedbeard | Which is why I always tell everyone to not buy their products, because it will be a hassle for them or overly restrictive. |
| 14:43.59 | hramrach | for a long time the patents are against the purpose of patents |
| 14:44.03 | lawrence | the apple phone ui was a complete innovation over existing stuff when it came out. |
| 14:44.04 | jammi | there are several products I don't like. do I spend all my time ranting around about how much I hate them? |
| 14:44.07 | RITRedbeard | Like not being able to switch a battery out, or RAM, or hard drive... |
| 14:44.33 | hramrach | because to win a patenta case you need good lawyer and lots os money, not innovation |
| 14:44.42 | hramrach | then you do not need patent in the first place |
| 14:45.29 | hramrach | and since there are NDAs on everything to dampen patent wars it does not help opennes in the least |
| 14:45.33 | RITRedbeard | My respect goes to companies that engineer good products, other than that I have no product loyalty. I buy what is good and meets my needs. I have respect for products that don't but are engineered well. |
| 14:45.44 | jammi | so? samsung is probably a bigger company than apple? why did they lose against apple? |
| 14:46.15 | jammi | also, all the big companies are in a constant legal turmoil with each other, it's just the apple vs someone, which is media-sexy for some reason |
| 14:46.25 | hramrach | they are large enough to play the game |
| 14:46.32 | hramrach | but very few companies are |
| 14:46.37 | RITRedbeard | Apple doesn't engineer good products, they implement planned obsolescence which is reprehensible, really... |
| 14:46.43 | hramrach | if you are too small you lose automatically |
| 14:47.06 | lawrence | we used to hate microsoft for that |
| 14:47.08 | lawrence | now its apple |
| 14:47.12 | lawrence | next it will be google |
| 14:47.14 | RITRedbeard | What am I supposed to do when I have to explain to my family member that their laptop isn't upgradable and they have to buy a new one to get a new battery? |
| 14:47.16 | jammi | RITRedbeard: that's entirely irreleventa, although you're entitled to your opinion |
| 14:47.18 | lawrence | then some other company |
| 14:47.22 | hramrach | lawrence: I hate all those |
| 14:47.44 | hramrach | google for upholding sub-par web design |
| 14:47.49 | lawrence | for what its worth, the batteries are totally upgradeable |
| 14:48.03 | lawrence | although not a lot of whats out here gets to you out there |
| 14:48.03 | hramrach | if google can get away with crappy search and crappy HTML why would anyone try better? |
| 14:48.18 | lawrence | microsoft held back web for years. |
| 14:48.30 | lawrence | two big fark you letters named IE |
| 14:48.39 | hramrach | yes, that is past now |
| 14:48.39 | jammi | yeah, microsoft has actually earned the hate they get |
| 14:48.43 | lawrence | Apple is doing its best at moment to neuter HTML5 on its phones |
| 14:48.44 | RITRedbeard | planned obsolescence is a form of DRM, basically. |
| 14:48.55 | hramrach | and with ARM gaining momentum they are no longer holding the OS |
| 14:49.01 | jammi | they held back the entire industry by a decade or two |
| 14:49.01 | lawrence | by making it second class citizen and changing the rules / goalposts |
| 14:49.05 | penguin42 | wishes Google actually had a bug tracker - they've got some really damn annoying bugs that if they noticed them they might actually get fixed |
| 14:49.23 | lawrence | once a company gets large enough, no-one listens |
| 14:49.31 | lawrence | google reached that years ago, now its evil |
| 14:49.41 | RITRedbeard | Why? That's a dick move. Any company that does crap like that doesn't deserve my money and I'll do everything I can to make sure that people I know don't do business with them. |
| 14:49.44 | RITRedbeard | It's that simple. |
| 14:49.49 | penguin42 | lawrence: I'm not sure it's so much a case of no-one listens as so much is it's difficult to get through to the guys with a clue |
| 14:50.16 | lawrence | no, they obfuscate the support and push you to web based dummy BS |
| 14:50.18 | RITRedbeard | looks at the T62-mod |
| 14:50.21 | lawrence | much like Paypal etc |
| 14:50.58 | lawrence | @RITRedbeard - getting the 14" non widescreen T61p motherboard was the hardest part. |
| 14:51.08 | lawrence | as those are way overpriced for what they are |
| 14:51.16 | jammi | RITRedbeard: in the real world, every company does evil crap. it's just what companies do. they're driven by greed |
| 14:52.00 | lawrence | and no morals |
| 14:52.03 | jammi | and they always do it to the extent they can, some are better at it than others, but that's just how the world is set up |
| 14:52.12 | lawrence | its ok for farking things over in the name of profit |
| 14:52.14 | jammi | morals are btw entirely subjective things |
| 14:52.23 | lawrence | Bophal |
| 14:52.34 | lawrence | India |
| 14:52.46 | lawrence | Thalidomide |
| 14:52.55 | lawrence | Anything Monanto |
| 14:52.58 | RITRedbeard | lawrence, that's so beautiful... you probably have a leg up if you know mandarin in terms of sourcing parts |
| 14:53.19 | lawrence | lots of things done in the name of profit that are evil and very bloody definitely morally reprehensible |
| 14:53.36 | lawrence | 我会。。 |
| 14:53.54 | RITRedbeard | I want to do something similar because I'm not so hot about Lenovo after IBM has ditched them... basically all the new Lenovo products suck, I'm not just biased against Apple, Lenovo isn't going to get any of my money either because I think they make subpar crap. |
| 14:54.03 | hramrach | jammi: not entirely subjective. it's been observed that some basics are rather universal |
| 14:54.05 | jammi | oh, and btw. without apple ever existing, there wouldn't be arm as we know it either. we'd just have acorn going bankrupt at around the same time as commodore did |
| 14:54.38 | RITRedbeard | I have mixed feelings about my T410 although it's my main rig. |
| 14:54.39 | hramrach | there would be another CPU |
| 14:54.42 | jammi | assuming there would have been personal computers in the first place, in the extent they were deployed |
| 14:54.51 | lawrence | if companies should be people legally, then the people running them should be subjected to actual jailtime and actual penalties if they knowingly did wrong |
| 14:54.51 | hramrach | the time has come for non-x86 so it's here |
| 14:55.13 | hramrach | wintel tried to hold this back for decades but ti must have come eventually |
| 14:55.29 | penguin42 | lawrence: The problem is in a BIG company with say 50000 employees someone is bound to be a cruck however hard the management try |
| 14:55.43 | lawrence | someone needs to be responsible |
| 14:55.46 | jammi | without microsoft, it's doubtful x86 would have evolved past 8086 in the first place |
| 14:55.53 | penguin42 | lawrence: You can't be responsible for that many people |
| 14:55.57 | RITRedbeard | lawrence, is there a similar market in Hong Kong? |
| 14:56.02 | hramrach | ther eis not responsibility in a big enough organization |
| 14:56.02 | RITRedbeard | I'm thinking about visiting China for about a month. |
| 14:56.19 | lawrence | HK no, but Guangdong/Shenzhen is a hop across the border |
| 14:56.24 | lawrence | so its close enough to go visi |
| 14:56.27 | lawrence | visit |
| 14:56.32 | hramrach | there were multitude of options for PCs |
| 14:56.43 | RITRedbeard | Easy for American with a visa to go there and shop? Are the parts in specific shops or...? |
| 14:56.47 | hramrach | x86, Apple, Atari, Amige |
| 14:57.00 | lawrence | generally vertically integrated malls |
| 14:57.01 | hramrach | one had to make it eventually |
| 14:57.13 | lawrence | eg an electronics mall that sells phone parts |
| 14:57.17 | lawrence | a mall that sells led's |
| 14:57.22 | lawrence | a mall that sells panels |
| 14:57.24 | lawrence | etc etc |
| 14:57.25 | RITRedbeard | Any electronics at all in HK? Around Chung King Mansions? |
| 14:57.31 | RITRedbeard | ;) |
| 14:57.41 | lawrence | chungking mansions good for indian food |
| 14:57.46 | lawrence | but its a bit scummy for the price |
| 14:58.02 | jammi | hramrach: in a way, Apple is the only original computer company around doing what they always did |
| 14:58.26 | lawrence | better off going to wanchai i think and finding a cheap motel up that way. similar pricing and much cleaner |
| 14:58.48 | hramrach | no, they are withdrawing from PC market into cool gimmick market |
| 14:58.56 | RITRedbeard | Bingo. |
| 14:59.09 | hramrach | it's more and more obvious from their products |
| 14:59.37 | RITRedbeard | Also, is anyone else tired of the same cheap China turd plastic White look of electronics? It's a tired look. |
| 14:59.45 | jammi | the thing different with x86 was that it separated the hardware manufacturer from the software manufacturer, yet bundled the defacto software by the hardware manufacturer licensing the software from the software manufacturer |
| 14:59.46 | lawrence | they don't do that anymore though |
| 14:59.48 | RITRedbeard | Glossy turd white. Ugh... |
| 15:00.03 | hramrach | not that cool gimmicks are in itself bad |
| 15:00.05 | lawrence | if you look now at 机想 guys, its all bling shiny |
| 15:00.11 | lawrence | some nice stuff |
| 15:00.12 | hramrach | but marketing them as PCs is not cool |
| 15:00.28 | lawrence | and thats led to the manufacturers finding design matters |
| 15:00.47 | jammi | what apple does now isn't different from what commodore, atari, acorn, amstrad, etc did back in the day |
| 15:00.54 | lawrence | bitfenix is a good example of that |
| 15:01.07 | RITRedbeard | Well, what those companies did was actually novel for the time. |
| 15:01.34 | jammi | not even ibm. they were just unfortunate to be newbies in the pc world and screwed up protecting their ipr properly |
| 15:01.35 | hramrach | and when they did a game console they marketed it as gam console, too |
| 15:01.37 | RITRedbeard | What Apple does is finds a kinda sleeping market and they have a really good marketing campaign and beautiful product that usually happens to be a turd compared to the competition. |
| 15:02.07 | RITRedbeard | They used to make really high end computers and machines but that day is dead. |
| 15:02.32 | lawrence | http://www.newegg.com.cn/SubCategory/595.htm |
| 15:02.43 | lawrence | thats the local kind of crap for sale |
| 15:02.46 | RITRedbeard | They're marketing geniuses. |
| 15:02.56 | lawrence | no white boxes |
| 15:03.02 | RITRedbeard | oh my gosh |
| 15:03.04 | lawrence | its all funky shapes and lighting these days |
| 15:03.04 | jammi | RITRedbeard: not only that. they find hardware and make proper software support for it, and only then they make the beautiful product and sell it |
| 15:03.28 | lawrence | and newegg is pretty mainstream stuff |
| 15:03.37 | RITRedbeard | isn't like 189 what is that? Chinese dollar? |
| 15:03.46 | lawrence | there is some really cool stereo equipment genre casing out there |
| 15:03.47 | jammi | and sometimes, they make software, and have some new hardware invented to make it run, and then make the beatuful product and sell it |
| 15:03.53 | lawrence | RMB |
| 15:04.00 | RITRedbeard | Isn't the conversion rate like $1 USD/6 RMB? |
| 15:04.05 | lawrence | 6.2RMB to 1$USD i think |
| 15:04.59 | RITRedbeard | Wow, so the cases that are $50-60 USD here are $20 USD, that's awesome. |
| 15:05.23 | lawrence | http://search.360buy.com/Search?keyword=机箱&enc=utf-8&area=1 |
| 15:05.24 | RITRedbeard | Like you said too, it's a mainstream market, too... wow. |
| 15:05.29 | lawrence | 360 is good for comparison |
| 15:05.36 | lawrence | again, this is mainstream stuff for sale |
| 15:05.52 | lawrence | I can get quite esoteric if i show you whats cool on taobao |
| 15:06.22 | jammi | after all, what separates shitty hardware from good hardware is mostly the software supporting the hardware |
| 15:06.36 | jammi | (software including firmware and drivers) |
| 15:06.46 | lawrence | and design |
| 15:06.51 | lawrence | design matters too |
| 15:07.06 | lawrence | eg your no longer in existence "white box case" |
| 15:07.14 | lawrence | vs the cooler designer style stuff |
| 15:07.17 | jammi | of course, but even the best design makes a shitty product if there's no good software |
| 15:07.37 | hramrach | jammi: and apple makes somewhat decent software and then makes artifical restrictions on its functions based on design or DRM protection |
| 15:07.54 | jammi | just look at the b&o stuff: really nice design, really nice hardware. really sucky software, in the products depending on software |
| 15:08.01 | RITRedbeard | That's why I like Thinkpads, well my T410 is sturdy but not as sturdy as the ones that came before it. They're like Glocks but the beauty lies in the functionalty and ergonomics, not shiny white plastic |
| 15:08.11 | hramrach | so they take hardware. amke it work, write the software for it, make it work, and tehn release that as an useless bundle |
| 15:08.16 | lawrence | i personally think that thinkpads were better pre-lenovo |
| 15:08.20 | RITRedbeard | but rather black grubby matte plastic |
| 15:08.22 | RITRedbeard | Same. |
| 15:08.35 | lawrence | some of the newer carbon fibre stuff is nice |
| 15:08.41 | RITRedbeard | That's why I'm thinking about a T6x but do you have dedicated graphics or integrated? |
| 15:08.46 | lawrence | but they definitely went cheaper for that |
| 15:08.49 | jammi | lawrence: so do I, IBM made the displays themselves, which was the nice part of the pre-lenovo thinkpads |
| 15:08.49 | lawrence | i went integrated |
| 15:08.49 | RITRedbeard | I could never decide on that point :( |
| 15:08.54 | lawrence | but be careful |
| 15:09.05 | lawrence | as the NVIDIA's are hosed from the get go. |
| 15:09.14 | hramrach | there are good displays to be got without IBM making them |
| 15:09.24 | lawrence | so you need to BGA replace with new ones about once every 2 years. |
| 15:09.31 | jammi | with lenovo, thinkpads became just another overpriced niche product with as shitty software as all their competitors |
| 15:09.33 | hramrach | but hard to find good notebok case |
| 15:09.39 | RITRedbeard | Yeah, I heard those chipsets are finicky and get really hot. My friend had an X series and it burned up! Could heat half a room with that puppy. |
| 15:09.40 | lawrence | some of the ATI's aren't great either |
| 15:10.00 | RITRedbeard | To be had? :) |
| 15:10.03 | hramrach | with the insides cheap proportionally less is spent on the housing |
| 15:10.07 | lawrence | i beg to differ about the hard to find a good notebook case. |
| 15:10.08 | hramrach | and it's all junk |
| 15:10.19 | penguin42 | RITRedbeard: The w520's display is nice; firmware is a bit grim, but the display is nice |
| 15:10.25 | lawrence | if you wanted, I could quite easily do IBM casing |
| 15:10.33 | lawrence | for extremely attractive pricing |
| 15:10.42 | lawrence | and at good quality |
| 15:10.44 | hramrach | like second hand parts for old notebook? |
| 15:10.52 | lawrence | no, like brand new partys |
| 15:10.52 | RITRedbeard | I want to upgrade the screen on my T410 to an IPS and preferably non-widescreen, a 4:3 aspect ratio |
| 15:10.53 | lawrence | parts |
| 15:11.00 | hramrach | with only obsolete mainboards fitting in? |
| 15:11.14 | jammi | hramrach: then where were these good displays before apple started including them? afaik, products between 2005 and 2010'ish consisted of as shitty displays as 2000-2005 was, excluding the ibm products from that era |
| 15:11.15 | RITRedbeard | I have 1440x900 TN presently which is the highest you could order with the model in 14.1" |
| 15:11.19 | lawrence | you can go look at my little post on thinkforums i posted slightly earlier if you don't believe e |
| 15:11.20 | lawrence | me |
| 15:11.52 | RITRedbeard | lawrence, is that a good forum to buy parts from other members? |
| 15:11.56 | lawrence | i think RITRedBeard is a believer now |
| 15:12.01 | lawrence | i have no idea |
| 15:12.04 | lawrence | i buy my own |
| 15:12.07 | hramrach | jammi: the point is there are good diaplys today so no point IBM making themselves |
| 15:12.29 | lawrence | DisplayTech + IBM were doing the panel tech |
| 15:12.35 | hramrach | and I don't think Apple is doing the good displays. Or any displays for that matter. They just buy them |
| 15:12.37 | lawrence | really for a long time only IBM was using IPS panels |
| 15:12.50 | lawrence | which is why they were known for quality |
| 15:12.52 | jammi | hramrach: the displays out there today from lg and samsung are just catching up with where ibm displays were 15 years ago |
| 15:12.52 | lawrence | they didn't skimp |
| 15:12.59 | lawrence | till the later years |
| 15:13.00 | lawrence | yup |
| 15:13.06 | lawrence | my T62 has a panel from 2001 |
| 15:13.14 | lawrence | 2048 x 1536 IPS panel from 2001 |
| 15:13.18 | RITRedbeard | I always have loved Thinkpads. The reason I'm here is I wanted to stuff A10/Raspberry Pi into old 10.1" Thinkpad 240 series, but after dealing with A10 and technical difficulties... still searching for the right platform to shoehorn in there. |
| 15:13.35 | lawrence | well, IBM casings are cheap |
| 15:13.41 | lawrence | so it would be amusing to reuse those |
| 15:13.46 | lawrence | although IBM may not be as amused |
| 15:13.57 | hramrach | jammi: yes, and it was some time beforr SSDs were mainstream tha IMB gave up on HDD manufacturing |
| 15:14.02 | jammi | ibm sold their display manufacturing to the (evil) sony, which just shut down production to prevent them from competing with the sucky sony displays |
| 15:14.08 | hramrach | they are good at seeing that stuff it seems |
| 15:14.21 | lawrence | however i don't see them being able to complain about design if we just use specific parts |
| 15:14.31 | jammi | around the same time they sold the thinkpad brand-name to lenove |
| 15:14.34 | jammi | *lenovo |
| 15:14.35 | lawrence | thats part of my reuse standard design ethos to save money. |
| 15:15.05 | lawrence | but i'd more realistically use more generic OEM stuff than its an IBM or its an Apple style casing |
| 15:15.22 | hramrach | hehe, thinkpad case with ARM inside would be double-cool |
| 15:15.27 | *** join/#arm-netbook froese (~froese@212.255.27.189) |
| 15:15.27 | RITRedbeard | I subscribe to a similar philosophy. :) |
| 15:15.28 | lawrence | totally doable |
| 15:15.44 | lawrence | i could make one up in about 5 weeks |
| 15:15.55 | lawrence | or about 1 week if it wasnt CNY in like a few days |
| 15:16.12 | lawrence | i could get the 10 or 11" X series chassis |
| 15:16.15 | lawrence | stuff a screen in that |
| 15:16.21 | lawrence | get hinges etc off the shelf |
| 15:16.22 | jammi | I'd actually like a 12" powerbook with a 2048x1536 screen and multi-core arm guts |
| 15:16.29 | lawrence | and keyboards off the shelf |
| 15:16.30 | RITRedbeard | haha |
| 15:16.36 | lawrence | and be done in like 3-4 days tops |
| 15:16.42 | lawrence | and i'm not even lying. |
| 15:16.45 | jammi | with optical removed, and all the freed space used for batteries |
| 15:16.47 | lawrence | or making it up |
| 15:16.55 | lawrence | right now would be min 1 month though |
| 15:16.58 | lawrence | just because of CNY |
| 15:17.01 | hramrach | go for it |
| 15:17.07 | lawrence | as the whole country shuts down. |
| 15:17.10 | hramrach | great geek product |
| 15:17.22 | lawrence | speak to me in March |
| 15:17.23 | RITRedbeard | ohhhh I see, yes the new year |
| 15:17.27 | lawrence | no point till then |
| 15:17.28 | hramrach | generic case is great but this |
| 15:17.48 | lawrence | i do see IBM possibly being a bit litigious perhaps though |
| 15:17.59 | lawrence | but a 1 or 10 off would be ok i reckon |
| 15:18.06 | hramrach | send only on mail order from china |
| 15:18.14 | RITRedbeard | Yeah. |
| 15:18.20 | lawrence | IBM does actually exist here too. |
| 15:18.26 | hramrach | ow |
| 15:18.29 | lawrence | and patent stuff here too. |
| 15:18.47 | lawrence | so that also means they can be legal here if they want to also. |
| 15:18.48 | hramrach | does the spare part come with a license? |
| 15:19.10 | lawrence | although as we're reusing legit parts, hard to see what they could say. |
| 15:19.26 | hramrach | dodgy |
| 15:19.53 | hramrach | maybe if you start making these it would compel tham to print and add licenses to the spare part boxes ;-) |
| 15:20.26 | lawrence | well, i'd ship the stickers unstuck i think |
| 15:20.34 | lawrence | so end user can decide what it is |
| 15:20.42 | lawrence | you could be a sony an apple or an ibm |
| 15:20.47 | lawrence | for example |
| 15:21.02 | libv | anyone know how to get the sunxi stuff onto the nand, or is all that still TODO? |
| 15:21.25 | lawrence | you can either use the livesuit or phoenix tools to do it |
| 15:21.34 | lawrence | or blat it on yourself |
| 15:21.49 | lawrence | i'd suggest backup the whole nand first |
| 15:22.02 | libv | it is rather nontrivial to find out anything about it on our wiki |
| 15:22.09 | lawrence | i haven't looked at it myself yet, but its usually fairly straightforward to do |
| 15:22.13 | libv | and noone has bothered to add anything about it to my firststeps guide |
| 15:22.31 | lawrence | unpack the allwinner bsp |
| 15:22.44 | lawrence | go read their documentation on the phoenix and livesuite tools |
| 15:22.54 | lawrence | then decide to DIY as its a lot less painful |
| 15:23.22 | hramrach | libv: I use SD card exclusively |
| 15:23.47 | aholler | nand is one of those easy standards, therefor they |
| 15:23.50 | hramrach | I will bother with nand when I have working system to put there |
| 15:23.51 | libv | hramrach: yes, as have i, for the last 4 months. |
| 15:23.51 | aholler | ve reinvented it |
| 15:24.11 | lawrence | i'm in a relationship with mine, but i'll probably go NAND when I have a proper final software version for my particular application |
| 15:24.22 | lawrence | and break up with Miss SD card. |
| 15:24.49 | libv | but having this massive SD card protruding from the mele, and having to hold it in place with a rubber band, it does ruin the effect a bit when demoing stuff in front of 800 at fosdem |
| 15:24.50 | lawrence | but i haven't told her yet, so don't let her know. |
| 15:25.22 | libv | the connection on the mele really is rather unreliable |
| 15:25.41 | libv | maybe my sd card socket on my mele is just broken |
| 15:25.51 | libv | but then, it has been like that since i got it in june |
| 15:26.04 | lawrence | solder another one on perhaps? |
| 15:26.33 | libv | anyway, livesuit scares me, i think i better spend time just replacing the kernel, getting 1024x768 on vga going, and bumping cpu and memory up as much as possible |
| 15:26.42 | libv | lawrence: i do have a few other things to do before FOSDEM |
| 15:26.50 | libv | i am holding a talk, and organizing a devroom |
| 15:27.12 | lawrence | hey, the Mele, what does it have as resistance for vga RGB lines? |
| 15:27.15 | libv | i am in better shape than last year, i will not spend all night next thursday hacking away |
| 15:27.16 | lawrence | 75ohm? |
| 15:28.05 | libv | lawrence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vga |
| 15:28.14 | libv | "75 ohm double-terminated impedance (18.7 mA – 13 mW)" |
| 15:28.27 | libv | whether the mele actually adheres to that is another question |
| 15:28.50 | lawrence | as george was enquiring about it earlier on mailing list |
| 15:28.51 | libv | well, it's "something else" |
| 15:28.56 | lawrence | i was trying to help him on that |
| 15:29.20 | lawrence | and actually bought some resistors yesterday and a vga connector with the nice intention to get it working. |
| 15:29.25 | lawrence | but i got sidetracked |
| 15:33.28 | Turl | mripard: ping |
| 15:38.15 | hramrach | lawrence: actually using a brand laptop case for the rev1 of the mobile display thing might goo idea |
| 15:38.51 | hramrach | proven design, people can know what to expect mechanically by inspecting existing hardware |
| 15:39.29 | hramrach | you can abuse their parts support program to ensure parts availability for some time |
| 15:40.21 | hramrach | libv: the problem is that you need different u-boot for SD and nand |
| 15:40.41 | hramrach | it it's not just cut&paste, needs some testing |
| 15:41.20 | lawrence | you can rip that straight off the nand though |
| 15:41.39 | lawrence | although, i hope that nothing is in JFFS2 or similar |
| 15:41.53 | lawrence | as thats a pain in the ass to get off properly |
| 15:42.01 | hramrach | it might or might not work correctly |
| 15:42.02 | lawrence | as you need to parse it for bad blocks etc |
| 15:42.22 | hramrach | thre has been some work on bugfixing the u-boot and adding features maybe too |
| 15:42.23 | lawrence | having done this before by hand for other nand based firmwares |
| 15:42.55 | lawrence | if someone pushed me a dump of the nand, i would take a look at work tomororw |
| 15:43.17 | lawrence | i'm just a bit lazy to get up and get it done myself (dumping it), as i have other priorities |
| 15:43.18 | hramrach | it's somethig like FAT |
| 15:43.51 | lawrence | on NAND? |
| 15:44.10 | lawrence | usually MTD structures are rarely fat |
| 15:44.18 | hramrach | will look |
| 15:44.19 | lawrence | but i haven't looked at all yet |
| 15:44.34 | lawrence | its more likely to be jffs2 or similar |
| 15:44.46 | lawrence | fat is highly unlikely |
| 15:45.56 | hramrach | FAT16 |
| 15:48.39 | lawrence | well color me shocked |
| 15:48.45 | lawrence | can i get a dump of some of that |
| 15:49.05 | hramrach | if you want to download 4G of junk |
| 15:49.12 | lawrence | sure |
| 15:49.18 | hramrach | the first part id fat the rest unknown |
| 15:49.31 | lawrence | thats ok, i can read it |
| 15:49.50 | lawrence | i speak most firmware file formats after a little effort |
| 15:49.56 | hramrach | where do you upload that much of junk? |
| 15:50.01 | lawrence | although having 2 files is better. |
| 15:50.19 | lawrence | i really only need the first 8M or so i think |
| 15:50.22 | lawrence | but 4G is ok |
| 15:50.25 | lawrence | you want ftp? |
| 15:50.51 | hramrach | 8M I can put on freeweb or something |
| 15:51.08 | lawrence | i have ample space / servers |
| 15:51.14 | lawrence | can give you a quick login somewhere |
| 15:51.17 | mnemoc | ttps://filetea.me lets you share per-to-per |
| 15:51.23 | mnemoc | and anonymous |
| 15:51.28 | mnemoc | peer-to-peer* |
| 15:52.05 | *** join/#arm-netbook ganbold_ (~Ganbold@202.21.108.104) |
| 15:52.13 | lawrence | i do have cloud stuff setup, but no good to you as its inside china |
| 15:52.18 | lawrence | and crap for you outside |
| 15:53.09 | torindel | lawrence: whats that nand for/from? |
| 15:53.23 | lawrence | the nand on the cubieborad |
| 15:53.38 | torindel | that got a10? |
| 15:53.45 | lawrence | yup |
| 15:54.09 | lawrence | a dump from a mele or similar for the first 8m or so would be good for comparison also |
| 15:54.17 | torindel | then thats normal, first partition will be fat16 with portion of a10 firmware stuff and menu/bootloader things |
| 15:54.45 | lawrence | i'm interested in the pre partition stuff |
| 15:54.49 | torindel | usually "protected" - if you modify that fat it wont boot |
| 15:54.52 | lawrence | to compare against the ipl we have |
| 15:56.20 | *** join/#arm-netbook gimli (~gimli@xbmc/staff/gimli) |
| 15:56.32 | torindel | lawrence: if you want i can link you tar.gz'ed contents of that fat partition somewhere from one of my a10's |
| 15:56.58 | lawrence | no, i want raw nand dump or part thereof |
| 15:57.04 | lawrence | not the partition itself |
| 15:57.47 | Turl | lawrence: you want to see the allwinner mbr format? |
| 15:58.06 | lawrence | i'm interested to see where it looks for things on the nand |
| 15:58.12 | hramrach | https://filetea.me/t1s7de16 |
| 15:58.19 | lawrence | and header prefix on there |
| 15:58.22 | lawrence | offsets etc |
| 15:58.28 | lawrence | hramrach - thansk |
| 15:58.38 | hramrach | np |
| 15:59.08 | Turl | lawrence: https://github.com/linux-sunxi/linux-sunxi/blob/sunxi-3.0/drivers/block/sunxi_nand/nfd/mbr.h |
| 15:59.16 | Turl | and matching .c |
| 16:05.53 | *** join/#arm-netbook vinifm (~Vinicius@177.98.206.221) |
| 16:16.49 | lawrence | doesn't match to that code there though |
| 16:19.54 | lawrence | i can see offsets to disk structures + a header |
| 16:20.00 | lawrence | looking at it |
| 16:21.01 | lawrence | or i'm not looking at the end of the file where it clearly says MBR 4 bytes, 4 byte version, magic8 (softw311) ... |
| 16:23.09 | *** join/#arm-netbook sspiff (~wim@unaffiliated/yukito) |
| 16:24.49 | hramrach | hmm, no point having more than 4G flash with 32bi tparittioning scheme |
| 16:25.25 | hramrach | oh, it's 64bit maybe |
| 16:25.28 | hramrach | so not so bad |
| 16:25.44 | lawrence | i'm just wondering where the cpu knows to get its boot info from |
| 16:26.12 | hramrach | that's ome part not in the dump presumably |
| 16:26.21 | hramrach | *some part |
| 16:26.31 | hramrach | like reserved flash space |
| 16:26.40 | lawrence | usually the SoC will look at somewhere specfically on the nand |
| 16:26.59 | lawrence | i should probably read the uboot code |
| 16:27.26 | lawrence | or even better, go to sleep, its 1230 and i have work today |
| 16:27.42 | hramrach | good night :) |
| 16:35.18 | rellla | anybody here with positive/negative experiences with armhf-emdebian on debian i386? seems, that repositories are broken... |
| 16:41.16 | torindel | lawrence: soc looks at hardwired address in nand (on that fat partition), and loads up boot.axf and folks which ends initializing hardware/loading firmware and then it either starts its built in boot manager (probably you havent seen it ;p), or boots uboot/linux kernel/wince if there where no timeout |
| 16:41.35 | torindel | lawrence: and no, you cannot get rid of it safetly |
| 16:42.41 | torindel | but you can boot without uboot ^^ |
| 16:50.31 | *** join/#arm-netbook cheng (~cheng@1.48.48.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my) |
| 16:51.09 | hramrach | torindel: what I would like is reclaim most possible disk space |
| 16:51.19 | hramrach | so like put u-boot on that vfat |
| 16:51.33 | hramrach | and make rest ext3 |
| 16:52.02 | hramrach | no need to have half dozen extra partiions |
| 16:52.50 | hramrach | but I don't expect partitioning tools would understand this abomination |
| 16:56.32 | torindel | hramrach: well in default installs uboots goes to that fat |
| 16:57.26 | hramrach | because the fat must be there and hte laoder would not find it lesewhere |
| 16:58.44 | hramrach | My SD card has exactly 1 partition |
| 16:59.03 | hramrach | with 1M reserved space before where part of the loader lives |
| 16:59.19 | hramrach | would be awesome if flash worked that way too |
| 17:00.13 | hramrach | removing the useless partition other than the first and last might be somewhat useful |
| 17:00.49 | hramrach | but getting rid of the werid sheme and using mbr/gpt/whatnot might be even better |
| 17:00.54 | hramrach | easy to formatthen |
| 17:02.12 | torindel | hramrach: i think you'll end up like this: fat partition, kernel partition, rest of nand (ext4 or whatever) |
| 17:07.26 | *** join/#arm-netbook bsdfox_ (~Bob@unaffiliated/bsdfox) |
| 17:07.47 | torindel | hramrach: firmware expects current partition scheme and 1st fat partition, and we dont have sources to change that |
| 17:10.21 | mripard | Turl: pong |
| 17:11.11 | cheng | hramrach: are u trying to change the nand partition? |
| 17:14.35 | torindel | cheng: he wanted to get rid of all nand stuff and use other partitioning scheme there without fat partition |
| 17:15.21 | cheng | ok. so far i only manage to get rid other parition, but the fat is remain there |
| 17:15.40 | cheng | so the board can boot the uboot+kernel |
| 17:17.02 | *** join/#arm-netbook rz2k (~rz2k@89-178-238-226.broadband.corbina.ru) |
| 17:21.50 | hramrach | cheng: I am trying out installing to nand |
| 17:22.01 | hramrach | how do you remove other partitions? |
| 17:24.55 | penguin42 | hmm, belkin have bought linksys |
| 17:25.30 | hramrach | from cisco? |
| 17:25.30 | cheng | i'm using this kernel to boot, then use nand-part tools to do the partition |
| 17:25.31 | cheng | https://sites.google.com/site/patandlesliewood/mk802/uimage-and-modules-3.0.36-t1.tar.bz |
| 17:26.17 | hramrach | I try if the system fits on the partition as-is |
| 17:26.18 | cheng | i can then remove all the android partition and create my own partition |
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| 17:26.43 | hramrach | did not know about nand-part |
| 17:26.46 | hramrach | thanks |
| 17:27.53 | toxicpsion | cheng: what is your end goal? there are some sdcard image floating around that have nand install capabilities. |
| 17:30.03 | cheng | i'm loading it with ubuntu, android clearing off the whole android. |
| 17:31.05 | SPG | 03James 05master 651c4af 06rhombus 03allwinner_a10/orders/QWK2LRN.mdwn * 14http://git.hands.com/?p=rhombus.git;a=commitdiff;h=651c4af |
| 17:31.19 | toxicpsion | cheng: >> http://guillaumeplayground.net/mele-a2000-ubuntu-12-10-armhf-base-with-nand-install-v1/ with some script tweaks works nice for me. |
| 17:33.35 | toxicpsion | thinks he might try to butcher sun4i-ir ... ugly beast that it is :( |
| 17:34.50 | cheng | i think the link is booting from sd-card. |
| 17:34.59 | cheng | while i'm trying to run everything from nand |
| 17:35.53 | toxicpsion | you start it from sd, then install it, then you never need the sd again... it uses lichee-u-boot (which has nand boot capabilities) |
| 17:36.45 | cheng | oh...that's great..do more dirty works anymore. |
| 17:36.59 | cheng | thanks for the useful links. |
| 17:37.03 | toxicpsion | np |
| 17:37.35 | toxicpsion | i got my mele to the point of being self hosted. :) now i can work on whatever i want :P |
| 17:39.17 | cheng | what do you mean by self hosted? |
| 17:40.13 | toxicpsion | has it's own compiler toolchain, and can recompile it's own kernel. independent of a separate development machine. |
| 17:40.55 | toxicpsion | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hosting |
| 17:43.16 | toxicpsion | a little less fighting with compiler options: because it's native instead of cross-compiled. |
| 17:43.52 | cheng | yes. but i bet the native compile will be slow. |
| 17:45.02 | cheng | btw, any idea what the device done on the image? http://guillaumeplayground.net/wp-content/gallery/mele_a2000_cluster/12100009.jpg |
| 17:47.58 | cheng | if i'm using armhf, should i still use -mfloat-abi=softfp? |
| 17:48.19 | toxicpsion | compile time's not as bad as you'd think.... i'm out of the house lots, so i just leave it. |
| 18:02.17 | cheng | thanks for the advice. gtg. |
| 18:07.21 | cobalt60 | I do indeed hate Apple |
| 18:09.52 | cobalt60 | Linus Torvalds has a reasonable opinion on patents and Apple is a classic example of why our current patent system is out of control |
| 18:10.30 | cobalt60 | My opinion on patents is less reasonable (intellectual property is a fallacy) |
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| 18:15.45 | SPG | 03lkcl 05master 9a75169 06rhombus 10freescale/ 03iMX6.mdwn 03iMX6/news.html 03iMX6/news/eoma68_imx6_pcb_wip0.png * iMX6 CPU Card * 14http://git.hands.com/?p=rhombus.git;a=commitdiff;h=9a75169 |
| 18:18.07 | SPG | 03lkcl 05master 97635f8 06rhombus 10evaluated_cpus.mdwn 10freescale/iMX6.mdwn 04iMX6.mdwn * reorg * 14http://git.hands.com/?p=rhombus.git;a=commitdiff;h=97635f8 |
| 18:18.40 | SPG | 03lkcl 05master dd9843c 06rhombus 10evaluated_cpus.mdwn * reorg * 14http://git.hands.com/?p=rhombus.git;a=commitdiff;h=dd9843c |
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| 18:41.00 | libv | urgh, colours again |
| 18:41.13 | libv | why? |
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| 18:53.24 | buZz | anyone here used gnuradio on an A10? |
| 18:54.45 | *** join/#arm-netbook gimli (~gimli@xbmc/staff/gimli) |
| 18:58.09 | buZz | trying to get it to work, but seems none-working |
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| 19:16.28 | jammi | btw, as for form-factors etc.. I'd actually love a classic case of an arm machine packaged like this: http://o.bombsquad.org/MacBoard.jpg |
| 19:16.49 | jammi | (I photoshopped that like five years ago or so) |
| 19:17.47 | jammi | like a modern version of an apple-II, c64, amiga 500 etc |
| 19:23.32 | *** join/#arm-netbook tinti (~tinti@pdpc/supporter/student/tinti) |
| 19:26.48 | jelly-home | there's at least one implementation of amiga in fpga |
| 19:27.20 | jammi | no fpga needed, uae has been around for ages. |
| 19:28.00 | jammi | what I meant was a compact case that includes a keyboard, but not the bulk of a display and battery like a laptop |
| 19:28.23 | jelly-home | uae is emulation |
| 19:28.39 | jammi | it is, and works well enough as is |
| 19:29.43 | jammi | got finally rid of my commodore collection in 2007, when I figured out I'll never use the hardware anymore, because emulators are as good or better, and vastly more practical |
| 19:30.59 | jelly-home | practical they are, but they're imperfect by nature |
| 19:31.21 | jammi | everything is about compromises |
| 19:32.06 | libv | jelly-home: whereas fpgas are perfect? |
| 19:32.18 | libv | for this specific task? |
| 19:32.26 | jelly-home | of course not |
| 19:33.15 | libv | i am sure that any modern core i? can happily emulate a 68k with cycles to spare |
| 19:33.20 | buZz | you guys think rtlsdr might work better in sunxi-3.4? |
| 19:33.33 | libv | jelly-home: actually, i know one of the remaining 68k toolchain developers quite well |
| 19:33.53 | libv | jelly-home: he uses emulators exclusively |
| 19:34.00 | jelly-home | libv: still I find a minimig or c-one more elegant and less power-hungry than a consumer pc board and an emu |
| 19:36.08 | libv | ah, m68k |
| 19:49.06 | jammi | anyway, I have no desire to run emulators on a lowendish arm |
| 19:49.20 | jammi | that's what I have my quad-core i7 laptop for |
| 19:51.17 | penguin42 | libv: Well if he wants a Sun3/60 or two..... |
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| 19:54.38 | penguin42 | browsing Barco monitors is dangerous; they do a 29.6" grayscale monitor for medical use; 4096x2560 - $31k |
| 19:55.53 | *** join/#arm-netbook servili007 (~servili00@unaffiliated/servili007) |
| 19:57.00 | jammi | well, you can still find t221's (22.2" 3840x2400, 8bit color ips) monitors for less than $1000 |
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| 21:21.53 | buZz | wth @ that monitor O_o |
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| 21:33.10 | jammi | grayscale medical ones have been around for a long time |
| 21:33.45 | jammi | and 30k isn't such a big deal when the rest of the equipment costs hundreds of thousands of $ |
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| 22:31.57 | samsung_anonymou | Hi, tired of googling without any substantial results. So, decided to ask here. |
| 22:32.45 | samsung_anonymou | I have a A13 tablet with Zet6221 or ssd253x touchscreen, however, both of driver sources are missing to build a custom kernel |
| 22:33.24 | samsung_anonymou | I can use tablet with synergy from my desktop, however touchscreen is a problem. |
| 22:33.53 | samsung_anonymou | Found some references to these kernel sources (which used to be existed in somewhere and were mentioned in some kernel configurations) |
